Karate

[snert]

Hey everybody,

I'm really new at photography, and own a canon 50D with the 18-55mm kit lens and the cheap 55-250mm lens
I bought these so i can figure out what my needs are before spending too much money on a lens i might regret afterward

Last weekend I went to a Karate tournament to test everything out. I know my lenses aren't really perfect for indoor sports photography, but for now, it'll have to do Smile

I would like your comments on the following picture


90mm
1/160
f5.6
iso 1250


This is the small version, bigger version can be found here:
Flickr Photo Download: kick to face


These are my remarks:
-even though shooting in aperture mode, the aperture went up to 5.6 i had it at 4.0 on 55mm, but for some reason after zooming in and back out, it stuck to 5.6 so i couldn't get a better shutter time, but i've been told this is ok so it keeps some movement in the shot
i should've double checked that, but forgot... i'll know better next time Wink
-the background is too crowded with the advertising, but i couldn't go anywhere else as there were other tatami's (mats on which they fight) to the left and right where other fights were going on... and on the other side of the tatami, there were the benches for other fighters/coaches/referees... so the only way i guess i could've lost some of the advertising, would be to get up higher in the stands, but i prefer being lower so i'm not shooting the top of their heads...
(or get a better lens with a bigger aperture so it would be blurrier)
-should i crop the picture so that there is less space to the left of the left fighter and also on top so there is less advertising?

I tried shooting with AF Servo as I thought this would follow to subject through the different AF points.
So I started using only the middle AF point, pointed it at my subject's face, and then just kept my trigger pushed half the way down, while i would compose so that not only my target would be in the picture, but also his opponent...

The problem is I don't really think it worked, is it because all the fighters were wearing a white outfit and the camera goes from one guy to the next? does the AF lose its target after a while?

The problem was I couldn't just keep my target on the middle AF point, as then I wouldn't have his opponent in the picture, but just his legs or something... and I tried choosing a different AF point (the left/right ones) but I didn't like the way it handled that...
What do you guys think I should do in situations like that?
or is the picture in focus but is it cause of the ISO noise cause it was not ideal light or is it just cause of the bad shutter speed and is it cause of the movement...

the legs look sharp to me, and the red belt's left hand as well (so hand with open palm to us) so i would think it's movement blur...



I changed the sharpness in the software that came with the camera (I pushed the sharpness slider all the way to the right) cause I felt this was better...



thanks for all info that you can give me on how to improve

Dieter

[IlluminatingPhoto]

My thoughts are that the shutter speed might be too slow to stop the motion. I think a good rule is to use no less than 1/250 when trying to stop action in sports.

That is probably why the planted legs are clearer than the moving head.

Great timing though. Looks like it hurt.

[Daniel Veazey]

I'll start off by saying I'm no expert. I think this is a very cool photo. The expressions on the faces really make this photo for me. Even the guy sitting down on the left, he's awesome. I would definitely not crop him out. I would crop out all the signs up top. Maybe crop near the top of the yellow and black dragon banner, just enough to get the dragon in but not necessarily the top of the banner. Left, right and bottom I think don't need to be cropped any more. I think you did a great job with exposure, the white uniforms are not blown out, but you can still see pretty decent detail in the darker areas too. Overall, you've made me want to go to a karate tournament now.

Hope this helped,

[GadgetRick]

Nothing wrong with the photo for someone just starting out with this type of photography. It's much more difficult than many believe until they've tried it.

You're right in you need different lenses for this type of shooting. Also, if they'll let you, flash makes a huge difference (preferably off camera but on camera would work well, too).

Yes, you need a wider aperture to blur the background but it's more than just a larger aperture. You need to be closer or the background needs to be farther away or you need to shoot at a longer focal length in addition to a larger aperture.

Yes, you should crop tighter (top and on the left).

You also need to do a little pp on the photo. Looks flat and it's slightly under exposed. Shoot in RAW so you'll have more range of exposure you can recover if needed.

You've got the right idea on AF Servo. You also should shoot in burst mode. I shoot with a 50D as well. Sometimes I'll shoot in burst and the first photo may be slightly out of focus but the others in the burst will be in focus. Just use center focus and keep your subject centered in the viewfinder (i.e. pan to do this).

I actually just blogged about this sort of shooting here. The biggest thing you need to do is practice. When I first got my 50D it took me a while to be able to shoot this type of stuff reliably. Now that I'm used to it, the 50D does a great job with it.

[snert]

Originally Posted by GadgetRick

Nothing wrong with the photo for someone just starting out with this type of photography. It's much more difficult than many believe until they've tried it.

You're right in you need different lenses for this type of shooting. Also, if they'll let you, flash makes a huge difference (preferably off camera but on camera would work well, too).

Yes, you need a wider aperture to blur the background but it's more than just a larger aperture. You need to be closer or the background needs to be farther away or you need to shoot at a longer focal length in addition to a larger aperture.

Yes, you should crop tighter (top and on the left).

You also need to do a little pp on the photo. Looks flat and it's slightly under exposed. Shoot in RAW so you'll have more range of exposure you can recover if needed.

You've got the right idea on AF Servo. You also should shoot in burst mode. I shoot with a 50D as well. Sometimes I'll shoot in burst and the first photo may be slightly out of focus but the others in the burst will be in focus. Just use center focus and keep your subject centered in the viewfinder (i.e. pan to do this).

I actually just blogged about this sort of shooting here. The biggest thing you need to do is practice. When I first got my 50D it took me a while to be able to shoot this type of stuff reliably. Now that I'm used to it, the 50D does a great job with it.

I shoot in burst mode, that's how I got that picture

about the middle focus point: if i use center focus and keep my subject centered, the 2nd fighter wouldn't be in the picture, unless i zoom out quite a bit... isn't it better to use the center focus point, and then move it while half pressed so that both fighters are in the viewfinder?

I'll definitely check out your blog post, I had seen your previous posts and really liked your shots!


edit:you also say: "You also need to do a little pp on the photo. Looks flat and it's slightly under exposed. Shoot in RAW so you'll have more range of exposure you can recover if needed."
what do you mean it looks flat? and how should I work on that?

I wanted to shoot in RAW, but because of the burst mode, and only a small CF card, I changed to only jpeg... (and even then I had to delete a lot of pictures while I was out there)


thanks everybody for your feedback, i really appreciate it!

Dieter

[GadgetRick]

Originally Posted by snert

I shoot in burst mode, that's how I got that picture

Awesome. Just keep practicing shooting in burst mode. You'll get better.

Originally Posted by snert

about the middle focus point: if i use center focus and keep my subject centered, the 2nd fighter wouldn't be in the picture, unless i zoom out quite a bit... isn't it better to use the center focus point, and then move it while half pressed so that both fighters are in the viewfinder?

Definately not for sports. You will have to shoot wider and crop. The great thing about the 50D is you can get away with this because of the 15MP. Next to impossible to shoot the way you're trying (as you're learning).

Originally Posted by snert

edit:you also say: "You also need to do a little pp on the photo. Looks flat and it's slightly under exposed. Shoot in RAW so you'll have more range of exposure you can recover if needed."
what do you mean it looks flat? and how should I work on that?

Ok, I'll break your questions down.

When shooting in RAW, there is more information about the photo available to work with (essentially). It allows you to correct for over/under exposure much better than jpeg. I believe you can correct for 2-2.5 stops if you're over exposed and 1-1.5 stops if you're under exposed (but don't quote me on those exact numbers). Also allows you to have much more control over things like your white balance. There are other reasons but these are some of the bigger reasons.

When someone says a shot looks flat, they mean the contrast is too low. There are different techniques for improving contrast depending on what program you're using for pp. But at least increasing the contrast will help greatly on your shot.

The whole pp thing takes just as long to learn properly as shooting properly does. I'm always learning something new about both.

Originally Posted by snert

I wanted to shoot in RAW, but because of the burst mode, and only a small CF card, I changed to only jpeg... (and even then I had to delete a lot of pictures while I was out there)

I'm with you. I have a bunch of 8GB cards because you can pick them up for a reasonable price if you look and I'd rather have a bunch rather than one or two large cards. If I lose one, it's not as catastrophic.

The biggest thing is to keep practicing when it comes to sports photography (or any photography for that matter). I found it took me a number of months to really get comfortable with my 50D and how to shoot sports. However, once you learn what you need to do with it, you'll get some fantastic shots. The 50D may not be the BEST camera for sports (the 7D is better for sure and the 1D is also awesome) but it's much better than it gets credit for.

[snert]

Originally Posted by GadgetRick

Definately not for sports. You will have to shoot wider and crop. The great thing about the 50D is you can get away with this because of the 15MP. Next to impossible to shoot the way you're trying (as you're learning).

so i should put it on AI Servo, center focus point on target - zoom out wide enough so that both fighters are in the picture, half press and just keep my center focus point on the main target while he walks around and full press (in burst mode) when the action is coming...
as they walk further/near the AF will adjust so my main target stays in focus.
is that somewhat correct?


You are right about the pp taking a lot of time to master as well... i've been putting that off until now because I have never really gotten busy with any software like that...
but i guess it's time to look for some tutorials and get started




Thanks for the info, GadgetRick!

[GadgetRick]

Originally Posted by snert

so i should put it on AI Servo, center focus point on target - zoom out wide enough so that both fighters are in the picture, half press and just keep my center focus point on the main target while he walks around and full press (in burst mode) when the action is coming...
as they walk further/near the AF will adjust so my main target stays in focus.
is that somewhat correct?

Absolutely. That's exactly how you should do it. You'll be surprised at how many more keepers you'll wind up with. The AF on the 50D is actually quite good.

The biggest thing to keep in mind, however, is you must expose correctly (at least close) if you're going to crop a lot. When you expose incorrectly--then correct it--once you crop the problems you caused in fixing your exposure will be more evident. Here's an example of a good crop from my 50D using AI Servo (although it's not a sports shot):



This was HEAVILY cropped. In fact, it's almost a 100% crop. Yet the bird is in good focus. If I had not exposed it properly, this would not have come out as well as it did.

Originally Posted by snert

You are right about the pp taking a lot of time to master as well... i've been putting that off until now because I have never really gotten busy with any software like that...
but i guess it's time to look for some tutorials and get started




Thanks for the info, GadgetRick!

I'm finally getting my arms around good pp techniques and my photos are looking better. Part of that is I'm getting better at shooting as well but I believe my pp has advanced more than my photography recently. Learning lots of little tricks to make things better. I still have a LOT to learn about pp (and photography for that matter) but, at least now I have the basic building blocks in place to get much better in the future.

[snert]

Rick,

I just read your blog. Great post, thanks for sharing!
I thought about putting this question as a comment on your blog. But decided to just put it back here in my topic

I have another question

If I'm not mistaken, when shooting in burst mode, the focus will not change. So even when in AI Servo mode, if they are for example diving towards the camera and we start shooting when they lift off - keep firing away until they land right in front of us, the focus would still be at the point where they lifted off, right?

Now, again, if I'm not mistaken there is some option where the burst mode is "focus first" or whatever it's called, where in between shots, it might refocus before shooting again. Of course this would drastically decrease the FPS. So I would think it's not really usable.

What would you do in a situation like that?

kind regards,

Dieter

[GadgetRick]

Originally Posted by snert

Rick,

I just read your blog. Great post, thanks for sharing!
I thought about putting this question as a comment on your blog. But decided to just put it back here in my topic

I have another question

If I'm not mistaken, when shooting in burst mode, the focus will not change. So even when in AI Servo mode, if they are for example diving towards the camera and we start shooting when they lift off - keep firing away until they land right in front of us, the focus would still be at the point where they lifted off, right?

Now, again, if I'm not mistaken there is some option where the burst mode is "focus first" or whatever it's called, where in between shots, it might refocus before shooting again. Of course this would drastically decrease the FPS. So I would think it's not really usable.

What would you do in a situation like that?

kind regards,

Dieter

Hmm, that's a good question. Not sure what the answer is actually. I do know, many times, I'll do this and the first frame might be slightly out of focus but everything after that is in focus. I also have not had problems with the later shots going out of focus.

Now, I'm also not shooting 10 or 15 frames. I usually fire off 2-4 frames when I'm shooting fighting. I do, however, fire more frames (maybe 6-10) if I'm shooting birds in flight or something like that. Also haven't noticed going out of focus.

I'll have to look into that.