large family picture - suggestions?

[rikkersc]

Ok, I need some help/ideas/critiques/etc.
How can I improve this photo?



I took this photo this past weekend at the request of the lady in the middle. She wants to send it to distant relatives in her holiday card (the photo was just the family members, casual dress, didn't need to be holiday themed.).

Here is what I did to the original:
Used Group Shot software to fix the baby girl and her mother, who weren't looking at the camera.
Tried to use Group Shot to fix the baby boy, but his dad moved him too much and it wouldn't work.
Used Elements 5.0 to remove a thermostat control, light switch, and door frame line from the hall wall and an air vent and light fixture from hall ceiling.

The photo seems okay to me for the purpose it was needed for.

But, they want a Christmas picture taken with the same people in a couple of weeks.
How can I improve the photo for the future shot? It will be all the same people. The tallest is 6'9" and the shortest is 4'10".

Here are my thoughts on how I composed this photo:
Grouped immediate family members (husbands/wives) next to each other with parents holding respective child.
Three rows of people to allow everyone's face to be seen.
Tried to make it symmetrical (tallest in back middle, then sloped down on the sides)
They don't have a wall big enough that everyone could fit on, so I shifted them to the right to get the hallway rather than then entry to the kitchen with all of its distractions.

Here are some questions I am trying to think about:
To make it Christmas themed, what could I add? Their Christmas tree is in a corner with large windows on each side Would the tree even be seen?

I could use an upholstered chair for the oldest lady to sit in (instead of using the sofa), but then how could I position everyone else?

To me, I can't see how to group the family differently, yet still keep smaller families together.

ALL help, suggestions, ANYTHING!!! is welcome!

Equipment used: Canon 300D on tripod with hot-shoe mounted flash bounced off the ceiling (EV set at 0). 2 studio flood lights with white umbrella reflectors, one on the right, one on the left of the group (light pointed away from group, into umbrella)

[Nicole]

Ah, I can offer some suggestions because we have a large family when there are family get togethers (approx 50 people for the aunts / uncles / cousins / etc). So, basically how things work out for posing is pretty similar to what you suggested. Sorry if my thoughts are kind of all over, but I'm trying to think back to when I was doing the group shots last year

Put people into family groups, and put the tallest people at the back. While trying to get three rows is good, sometimes you can move people around to take up less room and still have everyone be seen. For example, the woman in the back row with the blue shirt. If she is with the man who is next to her (to the right), then you could easily stand her in front of him and both of them could still be seen. Often times you can put couples in front of each other rather than next to each other. The taller one can wrap his / her arms around the other one, and it takes up less room for cramped spaces. Most of the time they don't try to strangle each other

Try not to put anyone in front of the main person in the family. In this case, I'm guessing the older woman in the middle since you mentioned putting her in a chair in the middle for the next shot. It's good to have her in the middle since she is the center of the family. If there are people who are semi-short, you could put one behind either back side of the chair so that the grandmother (?) is centered between them. Preferably her kids behind her rather than grandchildren, but it depends on how you can set it up.

Have the tallest people holding their children if you can because it gets them slightly higher and you don't have to worry so much about the kids faces being covered.

If you move the camera down a bit, you don't need as much headroom and it will look less cut off for the people in the bottom row.

You should be able to see the Christmas tree if you get everyone set up right. You might try planning it on paper a few different way since you already know who will be there, their heights, etc. You could just have the tree to the side.

It looks like you've got all the lighting setup, so really it's just a matter of planning out where people stand. It's a big group, but it shouldn't be too impossible with a little work. Good luck!

[Richard Britt]

First tall in the back smaller as each row come forward and/or as you more to the middle of the group.
Set grandma in middle if possible. Go with family members together as long as it does not break the structure above.
A bigger room or if not to cold go outside were back grounds can be moved farther away and when combined with large fStop (the smaller number) depth of field can be reduce and the background blurred into contrasting colors.
I suggest that you request that the people don't dress up to Chistmas colory, more like go to Church dress. This will reduce contrasting colors,shapes and lines and makes the picture more useful for any occasion. If you want to add Christmas do it with back ground, like a decorated house.
Try to plans the shot(s) ahead to reduce the group having to sit to long (baby won't like it).

You might want to try sports mode to get several shots at a time, you may find the babies and others will look at the camera after the first flash and the next picture if taken quick may be better. You can use a timer combined with exposure bracketing to get serveral shots at a time if you want to be in the picture as well. Let every one know to sit still after the first flash if your flash recharge is slow.

Other hints;
Use a flash for fill lighting - inside bounce off ceiling - outside more stright on - use a diffuser in both situations, if you can get one.

Practice with camera and defferent setting to get camera to do what you want and then write down the best setting for easy reference.

Take picture slightly wider than you may want for finish product, you can always crop for final postion and centering but you can't add that shoulder that got cut off because Uncle Fred moved after framing.

Try a few shot from slightly above center positon. This will get people to look up a little removing dubble chins and helps get eye open eyes and people sitting up streight.

Fresh batteries in all equipment, empty memory card and review camera setting before collecting the group. Relax have fun.

[FocalFrenzy]

I'm sorry that I have no advice as good as is posted above. I'm only replying to tell you that I think you did a wonderful job with the group picture you posted. If you can incorporate any of the above advice, then I'm sure your Christmas shot will be great as well. Please post it so that all can see. Thanks.

[Manila_Joe]

Going from a high angle can generally fit more people into a picture but this may be difficult when you are indoors. It's still worth a try.

[ike]

I might be able to help with this,

I cant describe what im thinking, so i made a pretty picture in mspaint



Hope it makes sense, and possibly helps you out.

ike,

p.s this is why i take photo's i cant draw for toffee...

[rikkersc]

Thanks for all of the input so far! (Even the drawing, Ike.)
I have been trying to come up with plans on where to put each person exactly so when I go to take the pictures I can just say "OK, you stand here and you sit here and you need to put your hand here...."
I may even be able to try several options of different poses, so if I have a few ideas that will work as well.

The whole group is very patient and cooperative. For the picture posted above they were all asking me what to do, where to stand, if there was anything they could do to help (move furniture, lights, etc.) Just a great group.

I see minor things so far that I would change, such as move the people in the back row closer together. Maybe I could even get two rows of people behind the sofa, a "tall" row and a "shorter" row in front of them. I am still trying to think of what to do in the front, if I don't have people sitting there. I want the photo to look "finished", and am wondering if it will if there are just a bunch of feet there. But, maybe it will be fine.
I also appreciate the suggestion to lower the camera. I realized that after the fact, that I could go lower at the top to get in more of the sitting people. I was worrying more about not getting distracting lights from the other room, getting everyone to look at me, and checking the babies, that when I saw everyone's face and smiles on them (at least those who will smile at all) I was pleased.

If you have any more comments or critiques or suggestions on how to specifically arrange this group, please let me know!! I will be taking the next photos on December 24.

[clockdoc]

Hi. I am happy to hear that someone is using GroupShot and for its intended purpose as well (even though we had some fun with it and clones of ourselves). I think you are off to an excellent start. Other than the back row being a little under exposed, the lighting came out well, considering you used mixed light sources if I read your post correctly (bounced flash off ceiling and 2 floods bounced off umbrellas.) I tried to find your EXIF data but the flickr account denied me access to the photo. When you bounced the flash, was it diffused and was the flash head angled at 60 degrees or so instrad of straight up? You may get better coverage with the flash head angled slightly. Room size will affect the best angle so do some tests. Best of luck with your Christmas group shot. I am sure it will be fine.

[rikkersc]

Clockdoc, sorry about the photo access, I had it set to family only (not sure why) but it is fixed now so you can see the EXIF.
The hot shoe flash was not diffused, but it was bounced at an angle (I don't remember if it was 60 or 45 degrees.)
Any tips on how to get the back row better exposed? I can't move the camera any closer (or I won't be able to fit all the people in) but I could move the floods.

I also was impressed with the way the lighting came out. I don't use the photo floods very often (quite a hassle for dragging them around to set up) but I did a couple test shots of the room with the lighting (no people) and I liked the coloring much better than using floor/table lamps as I have done in the past.

Also, I was glad you mentioned Group Shot earlier. It really helped to fix the parts that I could (two of them any way). Unfortunately, in the other shots the people I needed to fix had moved from their original position so it wouldn't work (nothing like a two-headed child to say Merry Christmas!)

[clockdoc]

It is interesting that the flickr EXIF data says,"Flash did not fire." Maybe PS Elements affected it. Just looking at the image, it is very difficult to tell who is illuminated best by the flash and by the photofloods. Because of the slow shutter speed, I suspect the floods did the lion's share of the lighting via general room illumination. If you cannot remove your flash from the hotshoe, can the head be rotated so that it is facing backwards towards the line where the back wall and ceiling meet? If it is powerful enough, that may help even the lighting. Just a thought. Even if you came out with the same lighting for your Christmas shot as you did here, you can still lighten the faces on the back row using the "dodge tool"- I assume PS Elements has that tool?
Group Shot is a great tool but as you mentioned, it can create some interesting anatomical creations when subjects move too much between shots. Test your lighting beforehand Take plenty of shots and ask the participants to try to remain as still as possible. I look forward to seeing your results!