A bit Frustrated now..! (what does one look for in portraits)

[S_Sanyal]

I shall be a bit blunt now, perhaps the moderators could be of some help..! Or maybe I'm just impatient...

I simply dont get what I can do right in a portrait, none of my approaches seem to be working, I;ve kept it simple so far, still nothing satisfactory yet!
at least the maximum of pictures I have posted here in this critique genre have got hardly any substantive feedback, (sorry to say this... I acknowledge and respect the responses but so far, I havent been able to improve based on it)

Statements that have been well received in spirit of critique, yet do not provide much realistic solution ( my last post received some very long criticism but none of the repliers could, though they seemed professional photographers, suggest a single technique for improvement under the constraints one is faced with when shooting on-field!!!) Sure, sure, lighting and all can be controlled in studio, but thats at present outside my scope of work...I aim to learn first how to work with available light and make the most of it in a portrait, is there anyone here who can help me with that?! At some level, my frustration stems from arbitrary feedback, which it seems is quick to point out whats missing in a picture, but barely provides ANY approach to do it better, with all due respect to the repliers of my last post...No reply in my last post seems to have satisfied rule # 5 of this forum..."suggest how to improve"!

To be a bit more specific, if anyone's interested, you may take a look at the "people" pictures on this link below, all made on the field with available light...unfortunately I dont have access to discussions with Magnum gallery artist Raghu Rai(the photographer), so if anyone here respects the output as art and feels they get inspired to aim to achieve outstanding results such as these, that will do:

http://connect.in.com/raghu-rai/photo-gallery.html

As for my picture submission for this critique post, I would please like to know if this is a good example of a contemplative picture.(1) ....(2) is my focus sharp, the eye of the lady...
(3) If any other feedback is possible, please would you tell me whats missing as a viewer and as a photographer, how YOU would achieve it better. Thanks


Shatabdi by Rambling Eye, on Flickr
Camera and gear: Nikon D90 with 50 mm f/1.8 lense
EXIF: f = 50 mm (APS-C), ISO 200, aperture f/1.8, shutter speed = 1/200s

My sincere apologies if I sound harsh and rude here, but somehow I feel stuck and frustrated, portraits arent my strong point; I need help!

[naeno]

I'm sorry your feeling frustrated. We've all been through it.

The most important thing in portrature is the eyes...PERIOD! Eyes must be tack sharp, in focus, and the total focal point of a true portrait. The biggest issue I see with this portrait is that you can't see one of her eyes (though I understand you were going for emotion, you should still see both eyes). Your subject's other eye is almost completely obscured by her hair. This is always problematic in a portrait. Eyes convey the emotion.

Her hand seems oddly placed, almost like she's trying to break her own neck. I would have lowered it so it wasn't entirely covering her face.

Good luck. Keep trying, and it really does make sense eventually.

[Scooter Pie]

I actually like this photo. the color and the overall mood youre trying to convey. But I can understand your fustration. In my photo class during critiques..i always told my professor dont sugar coat anything! be as harsh as u can be for my critiques...try to make me cry!!

anywho.

what I would do to make this picture better for me:

I would have sorta brushed the models hair back a bit to it contours her face. I would have also removed her hand from her mouth.

I'd zoom out more - since your using a nifty fifty, take a few steps back - to get more of her in the frame as well as some of the background. Having more of her in the frame, I'd position her hands that they were resting on something...if nothing near by id have her cross her arms.

If you take a peek at my portraits on my website you'll find that im not a big fan of tight crops..and more so i leave a lot or too much head room.

again..thats is just what I would do. It doesnt necessarily make it the right thing to do. Its all about what you feel is right!

[S_Sanyal]

Thanks,naeno and scooter pie. noted all you comments! this IS actually of help I understand the importance of eyes in a portrait...makes sense, also looking again and again at this picture, I do feel that a composition including her elbow and hair brushed back may have made more sense..

[Photologyst]

Good portraits are difficult things. It’s often easier to paint a decent portrait than to capture the essence of someone in a photo.

The eyes are almost always, the thing, but not always. You could have a photo of grief with the eyes and face virtually hidden since the natural inclination of people feeling such emotion is to cover the face.

For me one reason this photo is unappealing is because the woman is pushing her nose around and the hand is disproportionately large. Also, the angle of the right shoulder/arm is odd and makes her look lumpy.

The blurred background cuts the photo in half.

I would say that focusing on what you are trying to convey to the viewer might be a place to start.

Lighting is paramount.

[highlydope]

Who cares what we think? As long as you (and the potential client) are happy with it, then be confident and just do your thing.

I don't see anything technically wrong with the photo (lighting, exposure, etc) , so anything I'll offer will be regarding composition. That being said, there's no specific formula to portraiture that's going to work every time, you just have to shoot a lot and try different things until you get the result you're looking for.

What I see when I look at the photo is a girl trying to hide something, either laughter or grief. Contemplation is a very broad category - what is she supposed to be contemplating? I ask because when someone contemplates love or suicide or lunch, they are all completely different looks. Maybe try to focus a bit more precisely on that question to get what you want. Portraiture is cool because it gives you time to build the scene in your head and plan it out - of course things don't always go according to plan and that can be magic too.

Good luck, you clearly seem to have the passion for this type of work!

[BigFuzzy]

Originally Posted by S_Sanyal

I shall be a bit blunt now, perhaps the moderators could be of some help..! Or maybe I'm just impatient... Yes, a bit impatient.

I simply dont get what I can do right in a portrait, none of my approaches seem to be working, I;ve kept it simple so far, still nothing satisfactory yet! How long have you been doing this? If I’m not mistaken, you’re just starting off on portraits, and you already expect to shoot some that the majority of the viewers here will praise you on? I think you’re expectations may be skewed.

at least the maximum of pictures I have posted here in this critique genre have got hardly any substantive feedback, (sorry to say this... I acknowledge and respect the responses but so far, I havent been able to improve based on it)
The problem is that it’s sometimes simply difficult to comment on something that they feel is fundamentally wrong. People may feel bad because all that they feel they can say is "I don't like it, do it better".. The fact that people have said little is good commentary in and of itself.. ie it's not given anyone anything to say.

Statements that have been well received in spirit of critique, yet do not provide much realistic solution ( my last post received some very long criticism but none of the repliers could, though they seemed professional photographers, suggest a single technique for improvement under the constraints one is faced with when shooting on-field!!!) I’m assuming this comment has to do with your “man in the doorway photo.” It’s hard to say much more about that photo other than, “no visible man = no interest” None of the other lighting issues really mattered (to me) because without a point of interest, the rest of the photo is pointless. I thought it was clear I (and others) were saying to expose for the man better. Period. Naturally, with the high level of contrast in your image, it was going to blow out the walls, I didn’t realize I had to break it down to that sort of basic level, I’ll be more clear next time. Sometimes there's no realistic solution. You want a perfectly exposed wall AND man in that photo.. int those lighting conditions it's just not "realistic" sorry.

Sure, sure, lighting and all can be controlled in studio, but thats at present outside my scope of work...I aim to learn first how to work with available light and make the most of it in a portrait, is there anyone here who can help me with that?! Yes, read “Light – Science and Magic” that book will tell you all you need to know about lighting. You’re asking, in your question, on how to photograph in tough lighting conditions in natural light. The best that can be said for your photo is to wait for more even lighting conditions because with the existing contrast, you cannot get a more uniform exposure.

At some level, my frustration stems from arbitrary feedback, which it seems is quick to point out whats missing in a picture, but barely provides ANY approach to do it better, with all due respect to the repliers of my last post...No reply in my last post seems to have satisfied rule # 5 of this forum..."suggest how to improve"!
Again, sorry we didn’t spoonfeed you.. but I thought my suggestions were very clear on what you could do. If I said “you can’t see the man, without him there’s not interest” I didn’t realize I had to follow it up with “Please ensure that the main point of interest is properly exposed” I thought it was obvious.
You also have to consider that the lack of comments, might simply be that the photo in and of itself doesn’t drive anyone to be interested enough to comment. I honestly think that your “man in doorway” photo was simply not very enjoyable for most people for the reason a few of us stated, and therefore instead of just saying “I don’t like the photo in general” they simply said nothing. So, yeah, I very much disagree that the detailed feedback I gave you didn’t give you suggestions on how to improve.. you just didn’t hear it the way you wanted to (ie hand hold you through the technical settings) I told you exactly what I would do in #3 about the crop.
When I said there was lots of noise, I would assume you read into that that you should see if there was a problem with the scanner.
When I said the image feels grey, that means my suggestion is make it more white.
When I noted the placement of your watermark, that meant don’t put your water mark on the main point of interest in the future.
You got all sorts of specific “suggest how to improve” in my answers alone.
Me and other cannot walk you through every little detail of your photo and tell you exactly what setting to use to correct everything, especially in a photo that I feel was fundamentally wrong (ie the main subject cannot be seen almost at all!)

As for my picture submission for this critique post, I would please like to know if this is a good example of a contemplative picture.(1) ....(2) is my focus sharp, the eye of the lady...
(3) If any other feedback is possible, please would you tell me whats missing as a viewer and as a photographer, how YOU would achieve it better. Thanks

1. No, not really. The reason is that it feels a bit posed, almost contrived. And like an above poster noted, if you’d not said you were going for contemplative I wouldn’t have know what she was doing. It feels more like she’s both covering up a laugh and trying to hide a bit from the camera. What would I have done? I would have showed her eyes for one. The lack of eyes (which would be the best thing to convey an emotion) is a major negative. I would have posed her to be looking off to somewhere into the distance and probably created space in the direction she was looking instead of composing her smack in the middle like you did. I’m also distracted by the line in the background. I would have gone higher or lower to eliminate that.
2. can’t tell, most of the eye that’s actually visible is black. Doesn’t look in focus, focus looks to be on her wrist which implies you used a central focal point. What I would do; learn manual focus or learn how to focus-lock and recompose without changing the distance of the focal plane you’ve locked in.
3. Simply put, her face being so hidden does nothing for me. There’s no real point of interest for me. My eyes are drawn to her tattoos since there’s very little else of interest (to me) to look at. Like I noted in my last remarks to you in your “dark doorway” shot, I think you got caught up in knowing that she was being contemplative but not examining if your image is actually portraying that. Step back and ask yourself whether the unknowing viewer would ‘get’ anything from this without knowing (or have to be told) the context.

My sincere apologies if I sound harsh and rude here, but somehow I feel stuck and frustrated, portraits arent my strong point; I need help!

You’re not harsh or rude, but I do think you expect too much from folks. Not all of us have all the time of the day to walk you through every little detail of lighting and exposure and posing and composition and white balance and scanning.. most of which were issues in that last photo and in this one.

[S_Sanyal]

Thanks Al..
I do appreciate your taking out precious time to elaborately "walk me through" my post this time. I'll check out that book you have linked in your reply..really appreciate it...

Impatience is good for me, its not exclusive to doing more and working hard... and I have very little tolerance for slack-talk or arrogance from both myself to anyone and others to me actually (especially someone who doesn't know me except through work, I see it as trying to overcompensate for something lacking in the person being arrogant)....it helps me keep my standards high and myself tight as a human being....

You see, as willing as I am to be critiqued on pictures, I also expect (implicitly) some clarity in the replies (it seems you have visited my profile page in spite of your time-paucity, and posted much more on DPS in spite of joining a month after I have, so good pointers are available in many earlier threads i have started as to what i mean by clarity), which is all I seek, maybe you are used to people meekly listening to anything you say without questioning it...unfortunately, I'm too difficult a student for a "guide" who is being mysterious and roundabout, and unwilling to be cross-questioned...

With all due respect Al, a majority of your portraits are about controlling light/scenes in a studio or outdoors, I dont work like that, sorry, this doesnt mean I dont think while I make a picture, I just have limited time to do it in a day, week or month...photography (which is not my profession) is a personal release and an honest art to me..as is my own professional work, which is equally complex and fulfilling...

Interestingly, FYI my "man in doorway" picture has had more views in two days and has overtaken my highest views photo on flickr, so if I were looking for praises, I would really just show pictures to my friends and not post them on Critique forums here...

and as I cant control on this forum WHO replies to my posts, I will accept anything, of course with the occasional reactions such as these, if you may call them that...in any case, you seem like someone who likes to have the last word, so you can take another shot at my response, and be met with silence this time, as this "conversation" is outside the scope of what this post or forum is all about. So any more replies may please be directed to the post in concern...Thanks

And oh yes, thanks for your replies to the current post, I see you have repeated many things that people above have already iterated, I'm sorry, but if I dont get a vibe that I respect a "person", I cant respect them as anything, no matter how good they are at what they do...so I will certainly look forward to the hundreds of OTHER very competent (and grounded) people around on DPS who can help me..

[BigFuzzy]

Originally Posted by S_Sanyal

Thanks Al..
I do appreciate your taking out precious time to elaborately "walk me through" my post this time. I'll check out that book you have linked in your reply..really appreciate it...

Impatience is good for me, its not exclusive to doing more and working hard... and I have very little tolerance for slack-talk or arrogance from both myself to anyone and others to me actually (especially someone who doesn't know me except through work, I see it as trying to overcompensate for something lacking in the person being arrogant)....it helps me keep my standards high and myself tight as a human being....
I'm not sure if this is directed at me. Is it? If so, how have I been arrogant? If not, cool.

You see, as willing as I am to be critiqued on pictures, I also expect (implicitly) some clarity in the replies (it seems you have visited my profile page in spite of your time-paucity, and posted much more on DPS in spite of joining a month after I have, so good pointers are available in many earlier threads i have started as to what i mean by clarity), which is all I seek, maybe you are used to people meekly listening to anything you say without questioning it...unfortunately, I'm too difficult a student for a "guide" who is being mysterious and roundabout, and unwilling to be cross-questioned...
Your comments early on in this post imply you weren't satisfied and that people didn't give you enough. And in my reply above I simply tried to explain why that might be. Sorry if my answers were blunt, it just seems that you took what those of said and threw it out the window because it wasn't exactly what you wanted. And you ought to appreciate the effort because I wanted to move on since I simply didn't like the photo, but then I saw how many looked at it and didn't comment, so I decided to try to help you out.. and then you state that those that gave you advice didn't give it to you in the right way or as detailed as you wanted.. really? If you want to spend time analyzing my commenting trends.. look at how much I've posted lately compared to when I first joined.. don't look at the pure numbers. Your photo was one of the few I've critiqued lately and I spent A LOT more time on it than I normally would.. agian, becuase I felt bad for the lack of feedback. Don't worry, I won't do it again.


With all due respect Al, a majority of your portraits are about controlling light/scenes in a studio or outdoors, I dont work like that, sorry, this doesnt mean I dont think while I make a picture, I just have limited time to do it in a day, week or month...photography (which is not my profession) is a personal release and an honest art to me..as is my own professional work, which is equally complex and fulfilling...
Check out 50mm Project
and
Portrait Montages
All these portraits (something you are trying to get into) are all shot in natural light (another thing you want help on) and are my most recent work so your "majority of your work" comment is absolutely wrong. this is why I thought that, in fact, that I was well placed in trying to help you.
I also work full time outside of photography, so I'm not sure what your point is there.

Interestingly, FYI my "man in doorway" picture has had more views in two days and has overtaken my highest views photo on flickr, so if I were looking for praises, I would really just show pictures to my friends and not post them on Critique forums here...

and as I cant control on this forum WHO replies to my posts, I will accept anything, of course with the occasional reactions such as these, if you may call them that...in any case, you seem like someone who likes to have the last word, so you can take another shot at my response, and be met with silence this time, as this "conversation" is outside the scope of what this post or forum is all about. So any more replies may please be directed to the post in concern...Thanks

Perhaps, in the future, you just don't complain about the quality and quantity of the feedback you DO receive and you won't get these reactions. I think, in fact, my post was incredibly helpful considering 170+ people looked at it and me and only two others felt moved enough to comment?

And oh yes, thanks for your replies to the current post, I see you have repeated many things (and added some new things.. but you'll conveniently forget that?) that people above have already iterated, I'm sorry, but if I dont get a vibe that I respect a "person", I cant respect them as anything, no matter how good they are at what they do...so I will certainly look forward to the hundreds of OTHER very competent (and grounded) people around on DPS who can help me..

So, my honesty, bluntness, and constructive direction means you don't respect me? Fair enough, to each his own, I guess you have nothing to learn from me. Good luck mate. I'll stop burdening you with honestly, constructive criticism and a tad bit of knowledge.

[S_Sanyal]

Too bad it ended like this, everyone has their moments...but sometime I'm sure we'l forget and we can be cool.
Cheers