|
||||
|
wow! thanks for the info!
have researched some about shutter speed for hand-held... Min. Shutter Speed just wondering though if Oly's in-body IS would reveal the same result with lower shutter speed...
__________________
The Olympian... Olympus E-520 http://rovic11.multiply.com http://raigoki.shutterfly.com |
|
||||
|
Would I argue that Ansel Adams got it wrong? Possibly. I'd like to see what he could do with my 50mm set up (50mm f/1.8 E series lens and Nikon D40 body) first. Being small and light, I imagine he could probably do better than 1/250s for optimal sharpness. I would also be interested to know the sensitivity of his film - even at ISO 200 (lowest setting on the D40) I can often pull off shots at 1/50s or slower (although that does mean the error rate starts to increase - I appreciate that I have the luxury of firing off multiple shots and not having to change film plates).
Wulf |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Ansel used leicas, (smaller,lighter,than your D40-and 50mm f2 Summicron,just about the sharpest lens on the planet)and nikons as well as view cameras-and as he states 1/250th sec for MAXIMUM sharpness-in other words, to equal using a tripod.Ask any pro,and he/she will tell you the same-you may not tell the difference on a 6x4 print, but you will on a 30"x 40" print. Last edited by kencaleno; 10-08-2009 at 10:57 AM. |
|
||||
|
Here's a controlled test to prove things:
Just how steady can a camera be held? To answer this question, I used an enlarger alignment device which is essentially a laser mounted in a box about the size and weight of a 35mm camera. From 30 feet, trying my best, the laser spot would dance around within about a 1.5-inch circle on the wall. Using trigonometry, this corresponds to jittering within a solid angle of about 0.24˚. (You might try the same experiment with a laser pointer securely taped to a camera.) The next question is how rapidly the laser spot moved within the circle. Without sophisticated instrumentation, I chose to use published medical data for the frequency of normal human nervous system tremor. The normal frequency range is 4-12 Hz. I assumed that my tremor rate was in the middle of that range, 8 Hz. In half a cycle, 1/16th second, a handheld camera may be expected to swing through 0.24˚, which translates to an average tremor of 0.24 x 16 =3.8˚/sec. Film resolving power How can we relate this jitter of 3.8˚/sec to the effect on image sharpness? Image sharpness is limited by the film’s resolving power, which for Kodak Tri-X is 100 lines per mm. If the image projected onto the film during exposure moves less than, say, half of a line spacing, we’ve probably achieved the film's maximum sharpness. With resolving power of 100 lines per mm, half the line spacing is 0.005 mm. For a 35mm camera with a 50mm lens, the angle of view is about 45˚ and the dimension of the film is, duh, 35 mm. With a little math, jiggling the camera 3.8˚/sec is seen to correspond to 3.1 mm/sec (so a 1-sec exposure would be hopelessly blurred–which even a beginning photographer well knows). To limit image movement during exposure to 0.005 mm, one-half the film's resolving power, the exposure time should be 0.005 / 3.1 = 0.0016 sec. This would call for a shutter speed slightly faster than 1/500th second (compared to the rule-of-thumb speed of 1/50th sec). Clearly, the conventional rule of thumb does not come close the achieving maximum image sharpness. It only works because the resultant blurring due to camera shake may not be noticeable for small enlargements. Conclusion I propose a revised rule of thumb: use at least twice the shutter speed called for under the old rule. For example, using a "normal" 50mm lens, use, say, 1/125th second rather than 1/60th second. Even better results can be achieved by using up to ten times the old rule’s shutter speed, i.e., 1/500th second in the example given. Question: What About a Digital Camera? Now, the size of the film affects the angle of view for a given focal length. For example, we know that a “normal” lens (one that has about a 45º angle of view, roughly the same as human vision) for a 35mm camera is a 50mm lens. For my medium format camera, with a film dimension of 60mm, the "normal" lens is about 85mm (50mm x 35/60 = 85.7mm), and the minimum shutter speed per the “old” rule is 1/85 second, say 1/125; make it one or two stops faster for my rule, and it’s 1/250 or 1/500 second. Implicit in all of this is that the “resolving power” (lines per mm) of film is the same no matter what camera it’s in or the size of the film. The minimum shutter speed is proportional to the film size and the film’s resolving power, and is inversely proportional to the field of view of the lens (degrees). The lens' focal length is “in there” somewhere, because the field of view (degrees), lens focal length, and the film size are all interrelated. Resolving Power of Digital Cameras Roy reports that for his particular digital camera a 14mm focal length is “normal.” Since we know that a 50mm lens is “normal” for a 35mm camera, the size of the array of pixel sensors (the equivalent “film size”) within his digital camera must be about 35mm x (14/50) = 9.8 ≈ 10mm (less than a third the size of 35mm film). (For simplicity, I’m using the width of the image, the long dimension; it would be more accurate to use the diagonal dimension of a 35mm frame.) This gives us one of our “unknowns,” and we now must estimate the resolving power (lines/mm) of Roy’s digital camera. Roy didn’t specify his camera’s number of pixels, but let’s say that it has 4.0 megapixels. Then the spacing of the pixels is about: √[(10mm x 10mm) / (4.0 x 106 pixels)] = 0.005mm. I’m ignoring two fine points: 1) the sensor array is likely rectangular, not square, and 2) the spacing between parallel rows of pixel sensors will be larger, by a factor of √2, in a diagonal direction across the array. With this pixel spacing of 0.005mm, we couldn't expect to resolve lines with the same spacing. Probably, we could expect to begin resolving lines with twice that spacing, 0.01mm (i.e., two pixels for each line). The equivalent resolution is: 1/0.01 = 100 lines/mm (coincidentally, the same resolving power as Tri-X film). To adapt the old inverse-of-focal-length rule to this digital camera at “normal” focal length, we need to multiply the “old rule” of 1/14 second by the ratios of image resolution. Thus, the “old rule” minimum shutter speed for the digital camera with a “normal” lens = (1/14 sec) x (100 lines/100 lines) = 1/14 sec ≈ 1/15 second. Roy’s “old rule” answer of 1/14 second is correct, but serendipitously so. That speed is only correct for my assumption of a 4 megapixel camera. If it were 2 megapixel or 8 megapixel, with the same 10 mm sensor array size, his answer would have been off by a factor of √2 ≈ 1.4. Interpreting Digital Camera Specs Out of curiosity, I checked the specs for my Kodak DX6440 digital camera, a 4-megapixel “point and shoot” model with a zoom lens. Here is selected information published in the user’s manual •Image Sensor: 1/1.25 inch charge coupled device (CCD), 4:3 aspect ratio •Lens focal length: variable, 33–132 •Slowest shutter speed, @ wide lens, Auto Mode: 1/60 sec •Normal lens focal length: not given CCD image sensor arrays are sized in an arcane manner, a legacy from early television days (for more details, refer to the website referenced below). But suffice it to say, the long dimension of a 1/1.25 inch array is about 5.6mm. We may now compute the “normal” lens focal length, by factoring the known “normal” lens size of 50mm for a 35mm camera: 50mm x 5.6/35 = 8mm. But wait, this “normal” focal length doesn’t even fall within the zoom lens’ supposed range, 33–132mm. What gives? Engraved on the lens itself is this data: “33mm–132mm (Equiv).” The manufacturer has listed the focal length range using the “equivalent” focal lengths for a 35mm camera. Therefore, the equivalent “normal” focal length of 50mm corresponds to a true focal length of 8mm, and the lens’ real range of focal lengths varies from 5.3mm to 21mm. The spacing of the pixel sensors in this CCD chip is about: √[(5.6mm x 5.6mm)/(4 x 106 pixels)] = 0.0028mm. As explained above, we might expect to resolve lines with twice that spacing: 0.0028mm x 2 = 0.0056mm. This corresponds to a resolving power of 1/0.0056 = 179 lines/mm (nearly double Tri-X film’s resolving power, 100 lines/mm). We may now compute the minimum shutter speed to achieve maximum image sharpness. At the “normal” focal length of 8mm, the minimum shutter speed, using the “old” rule is: (1/8 sec) x (100 lines/179 lines) = 0.070 sec ≈ 1/15 sec. Per my revised rule of thumb, increase this speed by one or two stops, so select 1/30–1/60 second as the minimum shutter speed. Indeed, the Kodak specifications for this camera, when in the Auto Mode, calls for a minimum shutter speed of 1/60 second at wide angle. With my “new” rule of thumb for selecting minimum shutter speed, I have seemingly rediscovered what Ansel Adams and even Kodak have known all along. What Ansel Adams Said "Tests I conducted some years ago, photographing leafless trees against the sky, indicated that, using a normal lens with a hand-held camera, the slowest shutter speed that ensured maximum sharpness was 1/250 second. I found that even with firm body support image sharpness was noticeably degraded at 1/125 second, a speed that many photographers consider safe for hand-holding a camera with normal lens." Since Roy was intrigued by my citation of Ansel Adams’ findings, I went back to Ansel’s book, The Camera, page 116, which states: I’m quite sure, based on the context of Ansel’s statement, that he conducted his experiment with a 35mm camera, and that his recommended minimum shutter speed of 1/250 applies to a 35mm camera with a 50mm (normal) lens. What is the equivalent speed of for a medium format with film dimension of, say, 60mm, also equipped with a normal lens? It is: (1/250 sec) x (35mm/60mm) = 0.00233 ≈ 1/500 sec, or twice as fast as for the 35mm camera. In general, the equivalent shutter speeds between two different camera/film systems is inversely proportional to the ratio of the lens’ focal lengths. Therefore, if 1/25 second is the desired shutter speed for Camera A with a 30mm lens, the equivalent shutter speed for Camera B, also with a 30mm lens, is 1/25 second—irrespective of the relative film sizes of the two cameras. This is true in general, assuming the films have the same resolving power. Similarly, if two film cameras, A and B, taking different film sizes, each have lenses with the same angle of vision, but of course with different focal lengths (F), the equivalent shutter speed (S) is given by: SA = SB x (FA/FB). My studies merely corroborate those of Ansel, but Ansel’s conclusions regarding shutter speed seemingly never achieved widespread notice; adherence to the “old” reciprocal-of-focal-length rule continues to this day. Perhaps with the Internet available to disseminate these findings, the “new” rule will gain greater acceptance. ® Doug Criner, 2004 Regards,Ken Last edited by kencaleno; 10-08-2009 at 11:16 AM. |
|
||||
|
What sensitivity rating would his film have been? That would make a significant difference. What other caveats are there? The fact I'm only using a 6MP camera with shots coming out about 3000x2000px is going to quash my hope of razor sharp results - I would be printing at a maximum of about 67dpi to produce an image at 30" x 40" and so would lose the benefits of any potential gain in sharpness because of the camera body (even if my lens would come anywhere near to his Summicron).
Therefore, I'm not suggesting AA got it wrong given the conditions of his experiment but I am suggesting that this is working with a much finer degree of precision than is necessary for most photographers to deal with. If someone can get good results at 1/focal length or slower, then those results speak for themselves. Wulf |
|
||||
|
I wont argue he was wrong, but wasnt using either A) an SLR or B) proper technique. Remember, Ansel Adams was quite some time ago and things have changed. He also says that it's a test he conducted: its in no way scientific for many reasons.
I know where I can handhold a shot: I'll just stick to that. kthxbai.
__________________
I am responsible for what I say; not what you understand. OsmosisStudios Gear List |
|
||||
|
Who knew Ansel Adams was so jittery. Maybe this was later in life when he was getting old and shaky.
![]() Seriously though. There's no point in trying to set up some super rigorous test to try to prove what the right formula is because the user has too much influence on the results. Any scientist will tell you that for a test to be valid it must be independent of the person performing the test. Camera shake is a phenomenon introduced by the user so it would be very hard (read impossible) to create a test to determine the minimum shutter speed that is independent of the user. 1/focal length is a RULE OF THUMB. It's not like calculating the field of view or the proper exposure. The only way to know what shutter speed you can shoot at and get sharp pictures is to try it yourself. Go get your camera, take several pictures at several different shutter speeds and see which one's are sharp. It'll take five minutes. Not that complicated. Ken, If you want to shoot at 1/3*focal length, great. But don't tell everyone else that they have to.
__________________
flickr Why I Like Photographs "It's more expensive, but it lets me adjust really specific settings that most people don't notice or think about." - Abed |
|
||||
|
is all about your power to keep the camera still. I make sharp photos on 1/60 for example with different kind of lense.
__________________
visit my site http://razvanchiriac.blogspot.com you can be anything you want to be, just believe in it! my gear:Canon Mark II N, Canon 400 D, 10-22 mm 3,5 Canon, 50 mm 1,8 Canon, 100 mm 2.8 Macro Canon, 28-300 mm 3,5-5,6 L Canon, 70-200 mm 2,8 Canon, 2x L Canon, 430 EXII, 580 EXII |
|
||||
|
Remember that his lens and cameras did not have vibration reduction technology.
__________________
Nikon D700, D300, D5000, NIKON GLASS 85mm F/1.8 D, 105mm f/2.8 Micro AF-S VR, 70-200 AF-S VR f/2.8, 28-300 AF-S VRII,10.5mm Fisheye, 24-70 AF-S f/2.8, TC-20E II AF-S, Sigma 12-24 HSM, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 HSM, Sigma 150-500 OS, 2 SB-600 Speedlights, Manfrotto 190MF3 tripod & 322RC2 ball grip head. - NJ, USA Flickr Photobucket Ok to edit and repost my shots on DPS forums |
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Each day we send out a quick email to thousands of DPS readers to notify them of updates. This email is just short excerpt of the first few lines of our latest post with a link if you want to read it all. You can unsubscribe from this this service at any time.
This service is provided by a third party (Feedburner) and you can subscribe to it by leaving your email address in the following field and confirming your subscription when you get an email asking you to do so.
Enter your email address for
Daily Updates:
For those wanting a weekly summary of what happens on this site this free email newsletter is probably your best option. It includes a summary of the tips posted to the site each week. This newsletter is subscribed to by over 25000 readers (many who also subscribe to the other options above) - come join the community!
To subscribe to this weekly newsletter simply add your email address to the following field and then follow the confirmation prompts. You will be able to unsubscribe at any time.
Enter your email address for
Free Weekly Newsletter: