Flash?

[jmw1990]

Hey
newbie here,
i have a canon rebel xsi and i'm looking into getting remotely powered flash units. I have been researching but i'm getting nowhere, its very complicated to me, so i'm asking for your help. heres examples of what i hope to accomplish with this (live band photography):

TiltViewer

if anyone could explain to me what goes into getting a system like this working or link me to some items that would be great!

thanks ahead of time

[inkista]

A lot of us are doing off-camera lighting with a hotshoe flash (aka "speedlight") and cheap radio triggers. The main website for the how-tos on this would be the Strobist. But you need to understand, that there's no fast three-step process to doing this. You have to learn how to light, and you need to know how to shoot in full manual and be able to swap stops mentally between iso, aperture, and shutter speed, before you can learn how to light.

You're not going to pick this up overnight, is all. Prepare to slog through a mountain of homework.

So,
Question #1: Do you already own a flash?
Question #2: Do you plan on creating a studio setup? Or shooting on location most of the time?
Question #3: Do you ever plan to put a flash on the camera hotshoe? Or use a flash only off-camera?
Question #4: What's your budget?

[jmw1990]

So,
Question #1: Do you already own a flash?
Question #2: Do you plan on creating a studio setup? Or shooting on location most of the time?
Question #3: Do you ever plan to put a flash on the camera hotshoe? Or use a flash only off-camera?
Question #4: What's your budget?

yeah i figured it wouldnt be an overnight thing i'm mostly looking to get the gear and learn that way, more of a hands on type person

anyways to answer the questions

1. the only flash i currently have is the onboard
2. for the time being it will mostly be on location shooting
3. hotshoe flash would be nice
4. budget is around 6-700

also, thanks for the response, its really appreciated, and any other online reading material on this subject you can link me to would be great

[inkista]

The Strobist is all you really need, but it's going to take some hard digging over there. Work your way through Lighting 102, Lighting 101, and the On Assignment sections, rather than the blog proper at first. And yes, I deliberately put those sections in that order--David Hobby (the ex-PJ who writes the Strobist) assumed that he was writing for a bunch of other pro PJs who knew about on-camera flash--he didn't realize the horde of dSLR newbies who'd be knocking on his door to learn about lighting.

The other website, if the Strobist's beginner stuff is a little too advanced, is Neil van Niekerk, who teaches using on-camera flash, as a wedding photographer.

Given your answers to the questions, I'd recommend getting a 580EXII.

The main reason I'd say you want to blow the $420 to get the latest-greatest most bells'n'whistles is because you also mention using the flash on-camera and you have a high budget. With the Canon 580EXII, you'll have the most power, and the most features and flexibility to use a flash both on and off camera with Canon equipment. When you have the flash on the camera, and it can communicate directly with the hotshoe, you get a lot of "extra" features, like high-speed sync (being able to use shutter speeds above your max. sync speed), and eTTL-II (the ability for the camera to automatically set the power level of the flash based on through-the-lens metering). You'll also have a PC port, an autothryistor mode, and the ability to swivel the head 360°.

The power and the 360° swivel are more important for on-camera flash, because you'll typically be bouncing the light--that is aiming it at a reflective surface to soften the quality. And having 360° means you can choose the bounce surface, and choose the direction of the light.

To trigger the lights off camera, with the 580EXII, you can use cheap radio triggers, expensive radio triggers, or way-expensive radio triggers. I'd recommend starting with the cheap ones, unless you know you're going to be going pro soon with a client tapping their foot while you wait. In that situation, you'll probably want to at least get Cybersync triggers for their reliability, if not PocketWizards. But most of us are cheap and just learning, so we start with Cactus V4s or Yongnuo RF-602s or other eBay triggers. They're about $40 for a Tx/Rx pair.

You will lose the extras of eTTL and high-speed sync with most of these triggers. But if you're limited to just Manual flash functions, then you can get much cheaper speedlight units than the Canon EXs, and go with something like LumoPro LP120s, Cactus K36s, or Yongnuo YN-460. The LP120 is the most expensive at $130 a pop.

If you have to have eTTL or high-speed sync, then you've got three options: getting another Canon EX speedlight to use off camera and use the near-infrared proprietary signaling Canon system. The main weaknesses of this are line of sight (the sensor on the remote flash has to see the signal from the on-shoe flash) and range--particularly outdoors and in bright sunlight. And it gets expensive, buying EXs (or an ST-E2). Or you could get the TTL PocketWizard units (about $400 for a Tx/Rx set) and using that with a 580EXII. Or (most expensive option: get the extra Canon EX, and RadioPopper PXes--about $500 an Rx/Tx set). You cannot use the pop-up flash on your XSi as a Canon master unit unless you have a 7D.

And that's why we mostly go manual-only with cheap radio triggers.

You will also read about using sync cords and optical slaves, but Canon EX units and optical slaves aren't a good match, and you can't trigger with the on-board flash easily (unless you've got a 7D) because we can't turn the eTTL preflash off. And sync cords actually cost about as much as the cheap radio slaves these days, so again, that's why the fleabay choices are the usual default for most of us.

When using a flash off-camera, the 580EXII gives you a few extras, but they're not huge ones, so if you think you might want to go with a lower-end flash like the 430EXII or a used 430EX or used 580EX, it might be worth it. The main advantage of the 580EXII for off-camera work, though, is that it has a PC sync port. None of the other Canon EX units do. So to use any syncing device: a cord, a trigger, whathave you, that connects through some sort of sync connector requires that the flash has a hotshoe-to-sync-connector adapter. With a 580EXII, you can just plug in directly.

Secondly, your camera doesn't have a PC connector. This isn't a big deal these days, as a lot of sync devices connect directly to the camera hotshoe. But some of the triggers do NOT connect to the flash hotshoe. The cheap fleabay choices mostly do. But PocketWizards don't. And Cybersync receivers don't.

The only other piece of must-have equipment (imho) is an umbrella swivel. I like this one, because it's smaller and more compact than the standard ones with the handle, and it comes with a stud that you can screw onto a monopod, so you can do light-on-a-stick. But your tastes may vary. Basically, having the swivel and the stud it screws onto means you can then mount your light on just about anything: a light stand, a superclamp, a monopod, or a tripod are just a few of the options. Anything you can mount a 1/4"x20 bolt onto, you can put your light on.

Hopefully that takes care of most of the stuff not covered in the Strobist's articles on gearing up in Lighting 101.

[jmw1990]

so say i wanted to control to off camera strobes via slave sensors picking up the flash from a flash mounted on the camera? is that going to be a problem due to any "line of site" issues for the sensors? also what units would be recommended?

[inkista]

If the slave sensors are optical (use light), then yeah, same line of sight rules apply. The light has to be seen to trip the sensors.

If the slave sensors are radio receivers, then no.

If you want to use Canon's infrared system with all the eTTL goodies, then the slave units you want are probably the Canon 580EXII, 580EX, 550EX, 430EXII, or 430EX. There are a lot of other units that can be used, but they probably won't let you control the power level manually. There are also third-party flashes (Sigma, Metz, etc.), but it's hard to distinguish sometimes if they can be used as a slave, since eTTL as a term is used interchangeably to mean this feature, AND the ability to automatically set the power level of the flash based on metering. You want to read the description/specs carefully, or go search/ask on the Flickr Strobist group discussions.

And of course, if Canon chooses to change their proprietary signalling protocol, chances are good the third party flashes may have to be reprogrammed to work with these changes, since they're usually reverse engineering the signals.

Those guys are the real flash-equipment whizzes, and everything I know I learned from them.

[jmw1990]

the replies are much appreciated, you have no idea! thanks for putting up with my newbness

i have been reading TONS of reviews on he 430EXII's and i like what i'm seeing, i'm probably going to get one of these just to play around with and learn the ropes then shoot for another 2 in the future along with some PWs. or maybe just 1 more and use both off camera, my only remaining question is if i have 2 off camera what do i need in order to mount a PW on my camera and have 2 for the off camera flashes? just 3 of these?Amazon.com: PocketWizard PWP-TR 801-125 PLUS II Transceiver (Black): Camera & Photo

at this point i'm just having troubles figuring out what i need to connect all these

i've learned so much in the last week its amazing lol

[inkista]

It kind of depends on the camera, flash, and trigger you're going to be using.

Assuming you're going with your XSi, two 430EXs II, and you've got the bucks to blow on PocketWizard Pluses, you'll need two hotshoe-to-sync adapters (either to 1/8" monojacks or PC) for the flashes--they don't have sync ports like the 580EXII does, and three of the PocketWizard Pluses: one for the camera, and one each for the flashes.

To me, if you're going to spend that much on PWs, you may seriously want to consider the FlexTT5/MiniTT1 PWs instead, because those won't require the adapters--they can be connected via the hotshoe, and they'll give you TTL, and you won't need a master unit on the hotshoe--you won't have groups/ratios/remote power commanding (I think), but you will retain eTTL.

Personally, I'd get a 580EXII ($430), an LumoPro LP120 ($130), and yongnuo RF-602 triggers (1Tx/2Rx =~ $60). That comes to $640, which is still inside your $700 budget, and you'd have the 580EXII to play with on-camera, the optical slave in the LP120, and enough for a lightstand and maybe a swivel.

Going the PocketWizard Plus and two 430EXIIs comes to 2($250)+($170x3) = $1010, which blows your budget.

[jmw1990]

thanks a ton again

i just realized i'm getting about 900 dollars back for taxes so i'll be able to use some of that to pay for this so i may be going with the higher budget but might want to go with your other suggestion to save a few bucks cuz it sounds like that should work well, i guess i have some thinking to do haha

[martindk3]

Inkista,

Just to let you know, your explenations are apreciated to more then just jmw1990!

I think I'll go for the Pocketwizard, seems to be a nice piece of equipment, and the 430EXs II. That will work with ITTL so all should be good.

Thanks again.