Canon & Nikon in terms of focus system, lens, equipment, camera crop

[mike_terror]

I'm an absolute beginner looking to get into photography from P&S to DSLR. (yes I know, you guys must be sick and tired of seeing that line )

I've spent a lot of time trying to read up on as much articles, reviews, discussions, youtube vids, comments as I can about the DSLR world. I understand that I will be buying into a system of the brand, not just the camera body itself. I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons from each company to see which suits me the best.

I went to my local Best Buy twice so I can spend some time playing with the cameras to get a feel of the ergonomics, menu, and button setup. Based on my budget and what feels good in my hands, I've narrowed it down to either the Canon 60D or the Nikon D7000. I went home and then did more research and here are my questions regarding the two companies and how they work.

Questions
1) From my readings, both the Canon 60D and Nikon 7000 are crop sensor cameras & not full frame. Both the EF lens & EF-S lens will work on the Canon 60D, but any investment made towards EF-S lenses will not work if I ever upgrade towards a full frame such as the 5DMKII and have to reinvest in new glass unless I purchased EF lenses in the beginning instead of EF-S. Should I see this as a drawback? Would the EF-S be considered inferior? When I first read about this, it made me sway towards Nikon due to the investment in lenses being compatible with all their cameras.

2) A plus side that I often read from other Nikon owners is that all the lens mount fit for all Nikon cameras. Does Nikon deal with any issues similar to canon with the EF vs EF-S lens? How does their design work when mounting lenses on one of their full frame cameras vs crop size camera? I read that there's a lot of vignetting when using a full frame camera, but how do you determine which lenses will cause vignetting and which wont on a full frame Nikon DSLR? Do they have certain names or symbols to differentiate them?

3) Another thing that I have a question about is the auto focus system on Canon vs Nikon. Many of the articles and forum posting that I've seen said that Canon's autofocus is better and faster than Nikon's. These readings were also dated in 2005 & 2008 so I'm not sure if there has been any changes since then. How does Canon and Nikon compare in their autofocusing? I read that Canon has auto focus motors built into their lenses, so does this mean there is no autofocus motor in their bodies? When it comes to Nikon, I have no clue on how their autofocus works for their camera. I'm really confused because people said Nikon's autofocus is in the lens, not the body, so some of their lower models like the D5100, D40, etc can't work with certain lenses? totally lost about this part w/ Nikon, if someone can please clarify this.

4) Canon's lenses seem pretty easy to understand because it's either EF or EF-s or EF L series right? and USM just means ultrasonic motor. But what about Nikon? What is DX, FX, AF-S (USM equivalent if I remember correctly), AF-N, AF-I, G, etc etc. This kinda ties in with my earlier question above about how some people say a lower end Nikon body won't work with certain lenses because there's no motor in the body and you'll have to autofocus manually. But other people said that Nikon has the motor in their lenses as well, so shouldn't it work?

5) What are your thoughts on the issue of auto focusing / pictures being too soft on the Nikon D7000. There is quite of threads and discussion about this problem, is it still an issue since its been maybe 5-6 months since the launch of the D7000


I love the feel and handling of both the Canon 60D and the Nikon D7000. For some reason, I don't know why, but I just feel like going towards the Nikon, but of course after a few hours of thinking, my mind also jumps back to the Canon 60D. My brain just keeps jumping around and can't make up my mind!

I do notice that there are numerous threads and discussions out there about how the D7000 has issues with autofocusing, back focuses, front focuses, and that the pictures are very soft. Some people have had to ship the D7000 back to Nikon, others swapped for another one. Has there been any update regarding this issue? What worries me is that since this will be my first DSLR, I do not have the experience of many other users around here. I'm worried that I may get a defective one, and since there's a learning curve, I may not even know it's defective since I don't know what I'm doing. Any bad focus or issues that occurs, I will automatically assume that it's my own inexperience. If I ever do find out that it's defective, I'll be way pass my 14 days of return window. What are your thoughts and opinion on this. I have thought about the D90, but since the D7000 is newer and within my budget, it is something that I can grow into as well.

I've also read that you need to feed the D7000 better glass due to higher megapixels and that it's more sensitive / unforgiving. Does this mean the lower tier of Nikon lenses won't be adequate enough for this body? I know I've typed a lot, but I hope I can get some experience, advice, and suggestions from both Nikon AND Canon owners / users.

Thanks again!

[inkista]

Originally Posted by mike_terror

1) & 2)... Both the EF lens & EF-S lens will work on the Canon 60D, but any investment made towards EF-S lenses will not work if I ever upgrade towards a full frame such as the 5DMKII and have to reinvest in new glass unless I purchased EF lenses in the beginning instead of EF-S. Should I see this as a drawback? Would the EF-S be considered inferior?

No. And it depends on the individual lens. Furthermore, while you can physically mount a Nikon DX (crop) lens on an FX body and shoot with it, you probably still wouldn't want to, because the lens will vignette (i.e., the image circle from the smaller format lens doesn't cover the entire sensor), and all that makes the Nikon cameras "compatible" is that they'll crop the image down. So then you aren't using your full resolution.

There really isn't a huge advantage to either system on these grounds in my mind, but I'm a Canon shooter with a 5Dii.

3) Another thing that I have a question about is the auto focus system on Canon vs Nikon. Many of the articles and forum posting that I've seen said that Canon's autofocus is better and faster than Nikon's. These readings were also dated in 2005 & 2008 so I'm not sure if there has been any changes since then.

There has. Depending on who you read, either one is in the clear lead these days. I think it's pretty much a toss-up and once again depends heavily upon which individual camera you're looking at. Brand-generalities always fall down somewhere. Neither is clearly better than the other for all shooters in all instances.

It's a matter of what you want to shoot, what you have to spend, and whether or not you've got friends who shoot one system or the other who can loan you gear.

I read that Canon has auto focus motors built into their lenses, so does this mean there is no autofocus motor in their bodies? When it comes to Nikon, I have no clue on how their autofocus works for their camera. I'm really confused because people said Nikon's autofocus is in the lens, not the body, so some of their lower models like the D5100, D40, etc can't work with certain lenses? totally lost about this part w/ Nikon, if someone can please clarify this.

Canon overhauled their mount in the mid '80s to be fully autofocus from the ground up. All the lenses have a focus motor, and the bodies don't. Every EF or EF-S lens will autofocus on every dSLR from Canon.

Nikon, otoh, didn't wish to alienate its user base (like Canon happily did) when they went to autofocus, so they kept their autofocus mount compatible, but it means that the focus motor can be in either the lens or the body, and you need at least one for autofocus. The two entry-level tiers (currently the D3100 and D5000, which are the successors to the D40 and D60) for Nikon do not have autofocus motors in the bodies. So, there HAS to be one in the lens. If the lens is designated as "AF", it doesn't have one. If it's designated "AF-S" it does. In practical terms, nearly all the Nikon zoom lenses have an AF-S motor in them, so you don't have to worry about it much. It's only if you're going to be shooting with prime lenses, the you may suddenly find yourself restricted to specific lenses if you require autofocus.

OTOH, the only times you really need autofocus are a) if your eyesight isn't good, or b) you need to focus very quickly. For things that sit still, you probably have time to manually focus. And remember, manual focus is how folks took photos for about a century or so, so it's not like it's impossible to use.

4) Canon's lenses seem pretty easy to understand because it's either EF or EF-s or EF L series right? and USM just means ultrasonic motor.

EF (full frame), EF-S (crop), USM (ultrasonic motor), and IS (stabilization) are the acronyms you probably need the most.

The Nikon equivalents, respectively are FX, DX, AF-S, and VR (vibration reduction). The G simply means the lens has no aperture ring and is of a newer design than if it's designated D.

5) What are your thoughts on the issue of auto focusing / pictures being too soft on the Nikon D7000. There is quite of threads and discussion about this problem, is it still an issue since its been maybe 5-6 months since the launch of the D7000

I think dpreview people are too busy worrying about stuff that doesn't matter most of the time. And that 90% of the time, it'll be a newbie with user error or a complete non-understanding of how one tests a lens or an autofocus system.

I love the feel and handling of both the Canon 60D and the Nikon D7000. For some reason, I don't know why, but I just feel like going towards the Nikon, but of course after a few hours of thinking, my mind also jumps back to the Canon 60D. My brain just keeps jumping around and can't make up my mind!

If you're going for the D7000, you don't have to worry about the autofocus motor stuff. The D7000 has one in the body, so both the AF and AF-S lenses will autofocus on it. Had you said this at the top, we could've saved a lot of time. Wikipedia has tables for all the dSLR models. The Nikon one shows which ones don't have a focus motor.

Check out the menu ergonomics, and the lens selections, and tell us what you want to shoot. Then we can tell you if one system or the other is going to be better for you. Generally speaking, all the cameras are good and very close to each other, if you're looking at similar tiers. But the lens selections are going to be a little different.

I've also read that you need to feed the D7000 better glass due to higher megapixels and that it's more sensitive / unforgiving. Does this mean the lower tier of Nikon lenses won't be adequate enough for this body?

No. It means people pixel-peep at 100% magnification too much and that you've been reading dpreview again. Look. Buy a memory card. Take it to the store with you, and take pictures with both cameras. Bring the card home, download the images and look at them on your computer, then print them out. You'll probably just find that both cameras are amazing.

[mike_terror]

inkista, thank you so much for taking your time to answer all of my questions.

Your answers are a great help in making my understandings easier with everything clarified. I also want to mention that you are ABSOLUTELY right that I've been reading too many threads on dpreview regarding the 100% magnification and the sharpness of the D7000 , I guess I just got caught up with everyone's craziness and worried lol.

As for what kind of photos I plan to shoot, I'll list it here below. Hopefully this can help you give me better insight on which route to take.

I hope to take pictures of:
- Portraits
- Family during gatherings
- Pets
- Indoor photos
- Landscapes outdoors
- Traveling
- City streets / lights
- Outdoor night photos with low natural lighting
- Concerts

- I like to have the option of video recording just in case a situation is suitable to do so. The 60D & D7000 both seem to suffice for my needs

As of right now, I don't think I'll be taking much macro photos, but who knows how my style will change in the future.

[Almond.Butterscotch]

Originally Posted by mike_terror

1) From my readings, both the Canon 60D and Nikon 7000 are crop sensor cameras & not full frame. Both the EF lens & EF-S lens will work on the Canon 60D, but any investment made towards EF-S lenses will not work if I ever upgrade towards a full frame such as the 5DMKII and have to reinvest in new glass unless I purchased EF lenses in the beginning instead of EF-S. Should I see this as a drawback? Would the EF-S be considered inferior? When I first read about this, it made me sway towards Nikon due to the investment in lenses being compatible with all their cameras.

This is true, but it's the same on the Nikon side. If the lens is labeled "DX" or "EF-S" the image circle created by the lens will only cover the cropped sensor. 35mm lenses will cover both cropped sensor and full-frame.

Originally Posted by mike_terror

2) A plus side that I often read from other Nikon owners is that all the lens mount fit for all Nikon cameras. Does Nikon deal with any issues similar to canon with the EF vs EF-S lens? How does their design work when mounting lenses on one of their full frame cameras vs crop size camera? I read that there's a lot of vignetting when using a full frame camera, but how do you determine which lenses will cause vignetting and which wont on a full frame Nikon DSLR? Do they have certain names or symbols to differentiate them?

All Nikon lenses made since 1959 will mount. Whether they 'work' depends on what you want. On the D7000, you don't have too many issues. The oldest AI-s and AI 'converted' lenses will only work in Aperture-Priority and Manual modes, but trust me, that's enough. (Also, non-AF lenses won't autofocus, but that's a bit of a given.) Canon changed the mount in the mid-to-late 80s and the older FD lenses won't mount on the newer bodies.

Originally Posted by mike_terror

3) Another thing that I have a question about is the auto focus system on Canon vs Nikon. Many of the articles and forum posting that I've seen said that Canon's autofocus is better and faster than Nikon's. These readings were also dated in 2005 & 2008 so I'm not sure if there has been any changes since then. How does Canon and Nikon compare in their autofocusing? I read that Canon has auto focus motors built into their lenses, so does this mean there is no autofocus motor in their bodies? When it comes to Nikon, I have no clue on how their autofocus works for their camera. I'm really confused because people said Nikon's autofocus is in the lens, not the body, so some of their lower models like the D5100, D40, etc can't work with certain lenses? totally lost about this part w/ Nikon, if someone can please clarify this.

The D7000 has the built-in screw motor but will work with lenses that have the motor in the lens as well. The lenses with the built-in motor focus much more quietly and faster than those that use the screw motor. AF-S lenses have the motor built in while AF-D and AF lenses uses the screw drive. Nikon's currently in a transition mode and many of the lenses have been upgraded to AF-S with more coming all the time. AF-D lenses are cheaper, though, and are made using more metal (generally).

Originally Posted by mike_terror

4) Canon's lenses seem pretty easy to understand because it's either EF or EF-s or EF L series right? and USM just means ultrasonic motor. But what about Nikon? What is DX, FX, AF-S (USM equivalent if I remember correctly), AF-N, AF-I, G, etc etc. This kinda ties in with my earlier question above about how some people say a lower end Nikon body won't work with certain lenses because there's no motor in the body and you'll have to autofocus manually. But other people said that Nikon has the motor in their lenses as well, so shouldn't it work?

DX = cropped sensor only. FX = 35mm = full-frame coverage.
AF-N doesn't exist. "N" on it's own refers to the nanocrystal coat that reduces flare and ghosting on high-end lenses.
G means it doesn't have an aperture ring. Not a concern unless you're using an older film camera (from before the F4's time.)
(The extra nomenclature comes from the fact that they've had the same mount for over 50 years.)

Originally Posted by mike_terror

5) What are your thoughts on the issue of auto focusing / pictures being too soft on the Nikon D7000. There is quite of threads and discussion about this problem, is it still an issue since its been maybe 5-6 months since the launch of the D7000

Can't speak towards this.

Originally Posted by mike_terror

I'm worried that I may get a defective one, and since there's a learning curve, I may not even know it's defective since I don't know what I'm doing. Any bad focus or issues that occurs, I will automatically assume that it's my own inexperience. If I ever do find out that it's defective, I'll be way pass my 14 days of return window. What are your thoughts and opinion on this. I have thought about the D90, but since the D7000 is newer and within my budget, it is something that I can grow into as well.

If you're buying new from a reputable dealer, there's the manufacturer's warranty that lasts long beyond the 14 day return period. Also, Best Buy's Geek Squad offers a 4 year warranty- which in digital, is a damn long time*.

Originally Posted by mike_terror

I've also read that you need to feed the D7000 better glass due to higher megapixels and that it's more sensitive / unforgiving. Does this mean the lower tier of Nikon lenses won't be adequate enough for this body? I know I've typed a lot, but I hope I can get some experience, advice, and suggestions from both Nikon AND Canon owners / users.

This is true of all super-high pixel count cameras. The 5DmkII has issues with it too. Generally speaking, it's not too big a concern unless you actually intend on using the full-size images (i.e. for printing), but that's IMHO.


*While they will get the job done, I don't trust them anymore. I gave them my camera and they told me 2-3 weeks with the 3 week mark being the absolute max. I didn't get it back for 6 weeks and change.


Hope that helps.

[Almond.Butterscotch]

Yeah- I had a feeling Inkista was working on a superlong post. Beat me to it.

[Almond.Butterscotch]

Originally Posted by mike_terror

- Portraits
- Family during gatherings
- Pets
- Indoor photos
- Landscapes outdoors
- Traveling
- City streets / lights
- Outdoor night photos with low natural lighting
- Concerts
As of right now, I don't think I'll be taking much macro photos, but who knows how my style will change in the future.

Portraits = 50mm
Family during gatherings = 35mm (indoors)
Pets = varies.
traveling = multiple lenses or a superzoom [yuck]
city streets = w/e
outdoor night = tripod.
concerts = (good luck getting your camera into shows w/o a pass) varies, 35, 50, 85.

Honestly: you've got two basic ways to get going on lens selection for either Canon or Nikon. (i) Use the kit lens until you find something specific you dont like (not enough reach, not wide enough, not a fast enough aperture, etc.) or (ii) get a 35mm prime (the 'standard'/'normal' lens for cropped sensor cameras) and shoot to your heart's content until you identify another need.

I've done everything you mentioned above with my 35mm f/1.8. A couple of smaller concerts and short portrait sessions later, I bought a slightly longer lens (50mm), though I still use my 35mm most of the time. I probably would've gone for the 85mm if I didn't have the focus motor issue.

[inkista]

Originally Posted by Almond.Butterscotch

Yeah- I had a feeling Inkista was working on a superlong post. Beat me to it.

Hey, old instructional wisdom: tell em what you're gonna tell 'em, then tell 'em, then tell 'em what you told 'em. Repetition is never bad. And I type a 100 wpm, so I've got a speed advantage.

mike_terror: basically either one will do fine for you. Both systems can cover those subjects pretty well with good moderately priced lenses. As for the dpreview-induced hysteria, we've all been there and done that.

The one exception here is that Canon doesn't have a crop-body 35mm f/1.8 with USM, like Nikon has the $200 AF-S 35mm f/1.8. Canon does have the EF 35mm f/2, but it's a full-frame lens, it costs a lot more, and it doesn't have USM. It's a much older lens in terms of design. OTOH, the 85/1.8 on the Canon side is USM, while the Nikon one isn't AF-S.

[Almond.Butterscotch]

Originally Posted by inkista

I type a 100 wpm, so I've got a speed advantage.

Good lord. I can barely do 20 on my typewriter.

Originally Posted by inkista

As for the dpreview-induced hysteria, we've all been there and done that.

Not all of us. I went from Ken Rockwell to DPS. And I still got my kit for $12.

Originally Posted by inkista

The Nikon [85mm f/1.8] isn't AF-S.

Yet.

[inkista]

Originally Posted by Almond.Butterscotch

Good lord. I can barely do 20 on my typewriter.

Oh, I'm a lot slower on a typewriter, more like 70wpm, because backspace don't work the same on a typewriter . I got on the internet in 1985, and did summer jobs in high school as a typist. Then I become a professional technical writer. For me, touch typing is a survival skill.

Re: AF-S 85/1.8?

Yet.

Oh, please please please. For both. We seriously need an AF-S 85/1.8G and an EF-S 35/1.8 USM.

[OsmosisStudios]

Originally Posted by inkista

Oh, please please please. For both. We seriously need an AF-S 85/1.8G and an EF-S 35/1.8 USM.

If you believe the rumour mill, there's a Nikon announcement next week. We've already seen leaks of the 50/1.8 AF-S, and there are rumours of an 85/1.8 AF-S as well.