When to metre for the sky and when to for the face?

[ajax_andy]

Just wondering if anyone can give me some tips of when to metre for the sky and when to for the subjects face?

Take the following pic for example:



The sky is blown, yet if I'd metered for the sky I think the couple would have been very underexposed. I used fill flash in this pic, but if I did that when exposing for the sky I'd have had to use a lot more and wouldn't that have then led to them looking unnaturally lit?

Now take this pic as another example (ok a lot wrong with this pic due to me not using fill flash or positioning the subject so half her face wasn't in the sun), I exposed for her face but the sky isn't blown out... yet this was taken in the midday sun, and the 1st just before sunset... so why is the sky ok in this pic and not in the 1st?



I'm a little confussed so any advice would be greatly appreciated

[gturner]

You can only exposure the sky correctly if you have enough light on the subject. No point metering the sky if your subjects face is dark... that just leaves you with a silhouette.

I like the first shot (but not the tilt) The burnt sky is not a complete loss.

The 2nd shot would be greatly helped by fill flash.

Which brings you to flash for outdoor shots.
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-pho...looking-flash/

[graciousness]

Originally Posted by gturner

You can only exposure the sky correctly if you have enough light on the subject. No point metering the sky if your subjects face is dark... that just leaves you with a silhouette.

I like the first shot (but not the tilt) The burnt sky is not a complete loss.

The 2nd shot would be greatly helped by fill flash.

Which brings you to flash for outdoor shots.
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-pho...looking-flash/

Actually, if you find that you have to underexpose the sky because it's too bright, it's guaranteed that your subjects will be underexposed, too. This is when you use fill flash on them - expose for ambient sky + fill flash. You have to use flash exposure compensation to the point where you feel that the exposure blends in with the background and doesn't feel unnatural.

What I would recommend if you are in the situation where you don't know if you need to expose for the sky or not is to use your histogram on your camera. Take a shot and take a look at the histogram and the blown out areas. If there's a huge amount of it, then time to expose for the sky and then fill flash on subjects.

Your second subject in your second photo could have also benefitted with some form of fill flash on the right side (off camera flash), I think. There's also something off with the processing - WB, I think. Everything has a salmon pink tone which makes the sky looks weird (for me, anyway). I think things are just a tad bit overexposed - the brightness overall makes the photo look flat. I think if I was taking this shot, I would have used negative exposure compensation (start with - 1) and then fill flash on her face off camera. I would have also taken a different angle from where you took the shot (but that's just artistic preference though along with some technical experiment to use the sun as rim light if possible or tighter frame around her so less sky).

I'm sure there will be some other different response from mine but I hope I've helped somewhat.

Cheers,

Grace

[ajax_andy]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

So with the 1st pic is there anything i could have done to avoid the blown out sky? Yes the tilt wasn't the best option here but was trying something different as all the shots that day had been very standard... however I think next time i'll try to only use it where appropriate.

The 2nd pic was just a photo for a family member... I didn't have my flash with me and is a very good example of why I need a new camera bag that fits all my equipment in! (I believe santa will be bringing a big Low Pro bag for me in a couple of months thankfully)

What I really dont understand is why the sky in the 2nd pic didnt blow out as it was in the middle of the day, or was it just because the contrast in brightness between the subjects face and the sky wasn't that great... and actually it'll usually just blow out if the face is dark in comparison to the sky?

[ajax_andy]

Originally Posted by graciousness

Actually, if you find that you have to underexpose the sky because it's too bright, it's guaranteed that your subjects will be underexposed, too. This is when you use fill flash on them - expose for ambient sky + fill flash. You have to use flash exposure compensation to the point where you feel that the exposure blends in with the background and doesn't feel unnatural.

What I would recommend if you are in the situation where you don't know if you need to expose for the sky or not is to use your histogram on your camera. Take a shot and take a look at the histogram and the blown out areas. If there's a huge amount of it, then time to expose for the sky and then fill flash on subjects.

Your second subject in your second photo could have also benefitted with some form of fill flash on the right side (off camera flash), I think. There's also something off with the processing - WB, I think. Everything has a salmon pink tone which makes the sky looks weird (for me, anyway). I think things are just a tad bit overexposed - the brightness overall makes the photo look flat. I think if I was taking this shot, I would have used negative exposure compensation (start with - 1) and then fill flash on her face off camera. I would have also taken a different angle from where you took the shot (but that's just artistic preference though along with some technical experiment to use the sun as rim light if possible or tighter frame around her so less sky).

I'm sure there will be some other different response from mine but I hope I've helped somewhat.

Cheers,

Grace

Hi grace, thanks for your comments.

I was worried about the couple looking unnaturaly lit if I exposed for the sky and used more fill flash then I had, as it was late in the day and felt the backdrop would look very dark compared to the couple in the pic... However you mentioned exposure compensation which is something I haven't really looked in to before, so will do a bit of reading on that now

Also checking the histogram is a good suggestion.

The 2nd pic was just for a family member but I was annoyed I didnt have my flash with me... I thought I was just going to take some scenic pics on a walk but then my wife asked me to take some of her mother which I hadn't been expecting.

The WB issue is because I used a warming filter in Photoshop to give it a more late summer feel. I also did a version without but she preferred this version... do you feel I made a mistake using the filter? I'm never sure if using them is a good or bad idea.

[scootermcq]

Originally Posted by gturner

You can only exposure the sky correctly if you have enough light on the subject.

+1 for that....

In direct sunlight, it is almost impossible. By the time you get the sky exposed you are either into f/22 and you now need a huge strobe to light the subject because with that small of an aperture your light is almost useless. You can use an ND filter to get a larger aperture, but you still need a powerful light to offset the filter. With highspeed sync, you can shoot above sync speed, but the power of the flash is so reduced that you need multiple speedlights to light the subject.

I usually use a studio strobe during wedding portraits, because they are mid day 9/10 times and you need a ton of light to offset the sun.

In this example, I was at sync speed, f/10 and with a 4 stop ND filter on the lens. I hit them with both a studio strobe off camera and an SB900 on camera

[ajax_andy]

Originally Posted by scootermcq

+1 for that....

In direct sunlight, it is almost impossible. By the time you get the sky exposed you are either into f/22 and you now need a huge strobe to light the subject because with that small of an aperture your light is almost useless. You can use an ND filter to get a larger aperture, but you still need a powerful light to offset the filter. With highspeed sync, you can shoot above sync speed, but the power of the flash is so reduced that you need multiple speedlights to light the subject.

I usually use a studio strobe during wedding portraits, because they are mid day 9/10 times and you need a ton of light to offset the sun.

In this example, I was at sync speed, f/10 and with a 4 stop ND filter on the lens. I hit them with both a studio strobe off camera and an SB900 on camera

Thanks and thats a lovely photo

So I guess the general rule of thumb is that if there's nice natural lighting illuminating the subject its ok to expose for the sky (and then use fill flash) as you'll be able to capture plenty of detail in the sky and subjects, and most importantly it'll look natural.

But if the subject isn't well lit, then what? Other than like you said use an ND filter and powerful strobes... is it just a case of accepting a blown out sky? At the moment I dont have a huge amount of equipment.

[scootermcq]

Originally Posted by ajax_andy

is it just a case of accepting a blown out sky? At the moment I dont have a huge amount of equipment.

Yes.... the subject needs to be exposed properly and the sky will be an unfortunate victim to have the subject (the main focus) exposed

But keep that in mind and use darker items as a background like trees and buildings that will not blow out if you are shooting at that time of day.



That was shot mid day with no hope of ever having the sky exposed properly

[ajax_andy]

Originally Posted by scootermcq

Yes.... the subject needs to be exposed properly and the sky will be an unfortunate victim to have the subject (the main focus) exposed

Ok thanks that clears things up for me a little and I feel I now understand a little better about when to expose for the sky and when not to.

many thanks for your help

[graciousness]

Can I just share a few videos from youtube that will help start you off with the ideas on flash photography? I watched these videos and when I did, things started to fall into place in my head regarding use of flash. You'll find other video links in youtube that you shoudl watch. I particularly liked watching Gavin's videos (third video link here) as he explained things well and I liked his work.

Outdoor Speedlight Portraits: Ep. 201: Digital Photography 1 on 1 - YouTube

Strobist Photography: Part 3 - Overpowering bright backlighting - YouTube

Portrait photography in sunny weather using flash - Week 55 - YouTube

From youtube, then go on to neil's great website to read up on flash photography.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/

And then when you feel more confident and things are stirring in your head and you're getting so excited because damn, this flash photography world is getting so exciting!! Look at all the things we can do by creating light instead of just relying on natural light! Then go to Strobist for main meal.

For desert, go out and shoot and put to practice everything that you have learned