Why is it so hard???

[dvtldav]

Why is it so hard for people to follow the rules? I have been on this forum for a couple of months now and never ceases to amaze me how many people cannot follow the rules, there are not that many to follow. In the critique section there are what three rules, post one photo per day, include EXIF data, ask specific questions. What is so hard about that? But everyday you see pictures posted with "What is wrong with this picture?", or picture with no EXIF data, and I know there are some on here that don't think EXIF data isneeded, but it is a rule, I didn't think the speed limit should have been 35 mph but when Sheriff clocked me doing 47 mph he didn't seem to care what I thought.
I am 60 something so I wasn't raised using computers so I know some of the people making mistakes are more computer savvy than I am, I can at least post a picture in Flickr and retrieve the info to get it to show up in the forum.
If I can't follow the rules then I don't expect anyone to critique my photos so don't expect me to critique yours if you don't follow the rules. The rules are there, but not there to be broken.

I am done ranting.

Dave

[navcom]

I agree with you. It's very frustrating because most of us want to both help and learn. In the critique forum, the rules exist to make it easier to get an answer for the poster by limiting the scope required by the critiquer. Without those limits you almost have to write a book to do an honest critique.

I've seen several posts from folks who just asked "please critique" who then proceeded to get upset and/or frustrated because nobody is responding. It's tough to respond when you don't know what direction to take the critique in and I don't have 3 hours to sit and pick it apart.

I've also seen some "please critique" folks get upset because they weren't getting the answers to their question. Kind of hard to answer when you don't know what the question is.

And EXIF data IS important because it makes it much easier to help someone who is new develop good habits and eliminate much frustration. Plus, if you've done a lot of critiquing, you start to see patterns and can compare settings to mistakes or successes...which means the critiquer learns as well. I know I've benefited hugely from this.

But in most poster's defense, they simply didn't even realize there were rules to begin with...they didn't look hard enough to find them. I wish there was a way to require first-time posters to have to read the rules and check a box saying they understand them before being allowed to post. But alas, that is probably not a possibility.

No biggy though! In the end, it's just a photography forum and nobody gets hurt.

[dvtldav]

Originally Posted by navcom

But in most poster's defense, they simply didn't even realize there were rules to begin with...they didn't look hard enough to find them.
No biggy though! In the end, it's just a photography forum and nobody gets hurt.

I agree but I have seen several posters day after day make the same mistake after being told to read the rules or told what the rules were and then after 2 or 3 times of being told someone gets a little harsh with them they get upset because someone was rude to them. Maybe it was the way I was raised but it seems like people today don't want to take responsibility.

[Dodge]

I think that maybe, when you're completely new to Photography and the forum, you are quite often looking for approval and encouragement rather than criticism and completely oblivious to the relevance of exif data.

A section for the uninitiated to show what stage they are at, maybe with a 50 post count to 'graduate' to the actual critique forum would help them to get the feel of things as well as cut down on the 'What dya think of my picture' posts? It would certainly be nice to have different levels of critique sub forums, but that may be impractical I guess. It would make critiquing more easy though as we'd naturally head towards the level of forum we felt comfortable offering advice in.

It often seems a bit harsh to critique a complete novices picture by the same standards as you would an experienced shooter, and quite often the advice given can completely go over a novices head if it gets at all technical.

Hmm, I think I may have digressed a little from the OP there

[navcom]

Originally Posted by dvtldav

I agree but I have seen several posters day after day make the same mistake after being told to read the rules or told what the rules were and then after 2 or 3 times of being told someone gets a little harsh with them they get upset because someone was rude to them. Maybe it was the way I was raised but it seems like people today don't want to take responsibility.

Totally agree. Usually at that point a moderator moves their post to the SYS section.

Thankfully most first-timers just need to be told once and they jump right on board. I think with the quick access to information we've all become used to with the internet, we are conditioned to just "go for what we want" instead of slowing down to look both ways before we cross. This means we don't even stop to consider that there are rules....just want a critique...now, now, now, NOW, NOW!!! LOL!!!

[SwissJon]

LoL.. You KNOW you aren't alone. In this feeling Dave.

What bugs me is when people are told, and then get ratty about it.. For goodness sakes, we're VOLUNTEERS trying to help YOU.. We ask you to do something simple, there's a reason behind it. If that's too much trouble, then it's going to be too much trouble for me to bother giving feedback. I've got to the point where I tell people or wait for someone else to, then if they don't do what they're asked, I'll just let the picture slide past un-critiqued.. I've far more interesting things to do than bother with someone who's clearly not interested.

Oh, and for anyone who's going to comment on this thread in a negative way, here's the reasons we NEED the things we ask for:

1) If you post more than one photo a day (edits of the same photo based on the critique given, in the same thread are fine in my opinion) you could just post your whole portfolio, or all of your snaps from that shoot. It stops the threads getting flooded, meaning we actually have time to feed back on the picture before it gets buried by the next person posting their portfolio. I don't think 1 photo a day is unfair, I think it forces you to look carefully at your own photos, meaning you're learning to self critique.

2) Asking Specific questions.. If you don't ask a specific question, it means you haven't really taken the time to look at your photo before posting it. What's wrong with that? Well it's simple really, first, you're asking me and others to take 20 mins out of our lives to feedback to you on, when you obviously can't be bothered with the photo yourself, why should we? You're not paying us, do some work yourself before you expect this from others. Second, you will NEVER learn if you don't look at your work with a critical eye. Your photos won't improve, you will be forever taking snapshots. None of us are there to hold your hand while you take the photos, so in order to improve, you need to learn to ask yourself "What's wrong?" at the time you're clicking, not afterwards.

3) Exif data. We only know what you tell us, we can't read minds, and we can't guess. A photo taken at 50mm F15 1/200 could easily look, given the right cirumstances, very similar to a photo taken at 200mm F5 1/50. However the problems you need to rectify need to be tackled in a different way for each of these two. I don't know these things, and I can't guess them, so tell me. If you don't supply this info, I'll simply move on to the next photo.

[SusanH1970]

Jon - well said!

[IABoomer]

Originally Posted by dvtldav

Why is it so hard

Originally Posted by Michael Scott

That's what she said!

Sorry, had to do it. Now back to our regularly scheduled rant, with which I totally agree.

[jdepould]

Originally Posted by navcom

Totally agree. Usually at that point a moderator moves their post to the SYS section.

I tend to do this, especially if it's a new user. The idea isn't really to punish so much as it is to get people to do it the right way.

Originally Posted by SwissJon

1) If you post more than one photo a day (edits of the same photo based on the critique given, in the same thread are fine in my opinion) you could just post your whole portfolio, or all of your snaps from that shoot.

Re-edits are part of the critique process, as long as the person isn't flooding the thread to keep it at the top.

[candidrachel]

Many people don't bother to read instructions or manuals full stop hence what they are invariably asking for could quite easily be read up on first.