What's fair use.

[Athas_orm]

Hi when I was on holiday recently there were professional photographers on the ship. They took a number of photos of me but more importantly of my two year old.

After we purchased some prints I requested one on CD which they charge for.

Now my first question. I didn't sign anything its just a standard service they provide. Whats fair use of the digital image. I assume getting a print would be okay. What about sharing with my flickr contacts (clearly not marked as mine contacts only) or showing here?

The other thing is I wanted to say thanks to the photographer for all his patience when shooting Connor, but I can't seem to find any way to email the cruise staff. Any idea how I could find him. (not sure about posting his name here as it may be an invasion of his privacy)

Wes

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by Athas_orm

What about sharing with my flickr contacts (clearly not marked as mine contacts only) or showing here?

Well, Flickr says that it's a violation of their Community Guidelines to post a photo that you haven't taken yourself.

Don’t upload anything that isn't yours.
This includes other people's photos, video and/or stuff you've collected from around the Internet. Accounts that consist primarily of such collections may be terminated at any time.

Now, of course, the key thing in that should be the last section about it primarily consisting of that. The only reason I say anything is just so that you're aware of it.

[Athas_orm]

Okay that's fair enough. I just meant ethically, same concept applies if I put it on my own blog password protected.

I mean if you don't have a written agreement and they've sold you the product, what constitutes fair use?

Or to put it another way. If your a photographer on a salary, and your company sells your photo on a CD what would you be comfortable with the purchaser doing.

I'm not talking about passing someone's work off as your own which is very obviously wrong. As for flickr's TOS I've uploaded a photo my wife took of me with my camera. Is that really in violation?

[dakwegmo]

Laws vary from country to country, so what you can do with it will depend in large part on what those laws are where you bought the image. In the US you could have problems printing the image if you didn't get a copyright release. Legally you wouldn't be allowed to do much with it without the release. As a matter of custom though, most people seem to think that if they have a digital image they can do whatever they please, which is certainly not the case.

[Swisstony10]

Originally Posted by Athas_orm

The other thing is I wanted to say thanks to the photographer for all his patience when shooting Connor, but I can't seem to find any way to email the cruise staff. Any idea how I could find him. (not sure about posting his name here as it may be an invasion of his privacy)

Which cruise line was it? Most of them (I'll use the Princess one as an example) have a program of giving a special mention to members of cruise staff. The Princess one is called "You Made A Difference", you can provide your name and cabin number, and the mention gets recorded against the name of the member of staff, and when they come to decide things like promotions and Employee of the Month, they take those things into consideration.

On Princess ships (the ones I have experience of), on the big main crew corridor down on Deck 4, they have a big display case on the wall, and in it they put a big list of all the "thank you" comments that they receive on each cruise, with all the details of the passenger's name and cabin, the crew member they're commenting on, and the full comment. At the start of each cruise, when the previous cruise's comments get posted on the wall, the crew all make a point of going to check and see if they've had anything nice said about them.

It's quite easy to dismiss feedback programmes like that as a cynical empty gesture, but I know that Princess at least take every comment seriously, and they always get passed on to the relevant people - I imagine other cruise lines do the same.

As to the photographer's opinion of what is and isn't "fair use" - a salaried photographer doesn't (as far as I'm aware) have any say in the use of the pictures that they create, the images are the property of the company that they work for. Were there no Ts & Cs attached to the CD that they sold you, stating what you can and can't do? The lab that I use know me now, and don't question things that I take in to be printed, but the first couple of times I used them, I had to prove that I owned the images that they were printing for me.

[Athas_orm]

Originally Posted by dakwegmo

Laws vary from country to country, so what you can do with it will depend in large part on what those laws are where you bought the image. In the US you could have problems printing the image if you didn't get a copyright release. Legally you wouldn't be allowed to do much with it without the release. As a matter of custom though, most people seem to think that if they have a digital image they can do whatever they please, which is certainly not the case.

I bought the image in Spanish waters on a US cruiseliner. I'd be surprised if you couldn't print the image, otherwise why do they offer CD as a service.

Originally Posted by Swisstony10

Which cruise line was it? Most of them (I'll use the Princess one as an example) have a program of giving a special mention to members of cruise staff. The Princess one is called "You Made A Difference", you can provide your name and cabin number, and the mention gets recorded against the name of the member of staff, and when they come to decide things like promotions and Employee of the Month, they take those things into consideration.

On Princess ships (the ones I have experience of), on the big main crew corridor down on Deck 4, they have a big display case on the wall, and in it they put a big list of all the "thank you" comments that they receive on each cruise, with all the details of the passenger's name and cabin, the crew member they're commenting on, and the full comment. At the start of each cruise, when the previous cruise's comments get posted on the wall, the crew all make a point of going to check and see if they've had anything nice said about them.

It's quite easy to dismiss feedback programmes like that as a cynical empty gesture, but I know that Princess at least take every comment seriously, and they always get passed on to the relevant people - I imagine other cruise lines do the same.

As to the photographer's opinion of what is and isn't "fair use" - a salaried photographer doesn't (as far as I'm aware) have any say in the use of the pictures that they create, the images are the property of the company that they work for. Were there no Ts & Cs attached to the CD that they sold you, stating what you can and can't do? The lab that I use know me now, and don't question things that I take in to be printed, but the first couple of times I used them, I had to prove that I owned the images that they were printing for me.

Its was the Celebrity Constellation. There were no T&C's which I found strange. It may not be their opinion, just curious really.

[dakwegmo]

Originally Posted by Athas_orm

I bought the image in Spanish waters on a US cruiseliner. I'd be surprised if you couldn't print the image, otherwise why do they offer CD as a service.

Its was the Celebrity Constellation. There were no T&C's which I found strange. It may not be their opinion, just curious really.

Legally, without something in writing saying that you have permission to make a copy then you can't duplicate it. There may have been some unwritten agreement that you can make prints and put it online, but if it ever became an issue (and it likely won't) you'd have a hard time proving you had a release.

[theosus]

Originally Posted by Athas_orm

Hi when I was on holiday recently there were professional photographers on the ship. They took a number of photos of me but more importantly of my two year old.

After we purchased some prints I requested one on CD which they charge for.

Now my first question. I didn't sign anything its just a standard service they provide. Whats fair use of the digital image. I assume getting a print would be okay. What about sharing with my flickr contacts (clearly not marked as mine contacts only) or showing here?

Wow - I cant believe they gave out a digital image. Its been a number of years (5 i think) since Ive been on a cruise, and they sell tons of paper pictures but I had never seen digital copies for sale.
One of the hands down best pictures I had with my wife was taken after the captain's cocktail party by ships photographer against a backdrop. We were both dressed well and smiling very naturally (thanks to the nature of the aforementioned party). We bought the picture. Of course, when we got home her mother wanted a copy. Having no way to get in touch with the photographer, even if we could, the picture had no ID number or anything on it so they could print another one, and as you said - they basically provide this service to the paying guests, I had a copy made at walmart. This was, I guess, before Wal-Mart started enforcing copyrights.
In my mind that was fair use. Of course - I could be wrong. I wasn't selling it, trying to pass it off as my own, etc. etc., and there was no contract or anything anywhere limiting my rights. Except, I guess, on the back of the picture where Kodak printed "professional paper - do not copy". But that was from Kodak, not Carnival. I would be interested in seeing now how they handle photos. Is it still a one-off type deal, or more like Disney where they keep track of everything?
Last time I went to Disney World they gave me a card, and you could order your entire vacation picture collection on CD, and print as much as you wanted, for a flat $150 fee...

[dakwegmo]

It's important to remember that the term "fair use" is a term that has a specific meaning under the law that is different from the everyday meaning. While it's reasonable to assume you have the right to make copies of an image provided to you on CD, it does not fall under the "fair use" exemption granted by US federal law. Making copies without a release is therefore a violation of the letter of the law.

[sk66]

Originally Posted by dakwegmo

It's important to remember that the term "fair use" is a term that has a specific meaning under the law that is different from the everyday meaning. While it's reasonable to assume you have the right to make copies of an image provided to you on CD, it does not fall under the "fair use" exemption granted by US federal law. Making copies without a release is therefore a violation of the letter of the law.

+1
"fair use" has to do with limited reproduction for specific purposes...personal use is not one of them.
I think you are probably fine making prints for your personal use, otherwise you need permission.