Underpriced, or too much for first time?

[mitchgreene]

Hi, I've been shooting for about two years. I've recently delved into nude photography and am really just exploring the concept. However, I was approached by someone to do some shots of her. All other considerations aside, I've decided to charge $150 for a two hour shoot and editing time. This is the first time I've ever done a photo shoot for a stranger and first time I've ever been offered money.

I'm in the DC area. Am I undervaluing my time, overcharging for an amateur?

I hope to provide 20-30 unique shots (out of an estimated 150-200 negatives) after the editing is done. Please advise.

If my wife wouldn't object (and oh yeah, she would), I'd probably do the shoot for free just for the experience and challenge. It's not every day you get a willing nude model. And this is a pretty challenging shoot...getting the lighting and composition right to make your model look as beautiful as possible, making her feel comfortable, trying to concentrate on what you're doing...I'd actually put this shoot as a much higher difficulty that weddings.

But your price seems pretty reasonable. Good luck.

[Alexandra]

Not sure about US going rates as i live in Australia. 150$ doesnt sound bad, even if that leaves you with under 40$ per hour for your work. If thats how much you value your time, its great. to me sounds like a discount price, even more as from what i gather you are giving her all the 20 or so pics on CD so you will not make any money on prints. Are you happy to work for that sort of wages for the next couple of years? If not, at least try and figure out how much you would really want and say you are giving her x% discount. It is very hard to push your prices up later on.

And make sure she signs a model release form that allows you to use the pics later on however you see fit. With other words, you keep the copyright for the pics.

If i have to sell the rights on my pics, im charging much much more then normal rates.

[Jim Bryant]

Shooting time sounds right, but here's what you should charge.
Following such a strategy, charges may include (but are not limited to) some combination of the following:

* Your usual creative fee
* An overall digital production charge
* A per unit digital capture charge
* Equipment rental (camera, computer, card reader, etc)
* Image conversion charge
* Retouching (Photoshopping)
* CD/DVD/FTP production charge
* Contact sheets (inkjet, etc)
* Reference prints (inkjet, etc)

It is worth noting that these added services reduce our clients' own post-production costs: no need for scanning technicians or lab techs, for example. Further, there is a growing number of "digital assistants," who charge $300-$400 to help photographers transfer, caption, convert and archive. We should not be expected to provide the same services at lower rates just because it is our own photography.

Having surveyed numerous photographers, a variety of methods and categories for digital services have been revealed. Here is a list some of the general costs and services for which we should be compensated:

* Production equipment (cameras, lights, etc)
* Postproduction equipment (computers, printers, card readers, scanners, monitors, burners, etc)
* Reusable media (memory cards, which will eventually need replacement)
* Consumable media (CD's, DVD's, prints, digital "Polaroids," inks.)
* RAW conversion, digital downloading and basic file prep
* Postproduction refinements and enhancements (Photoshopping)
* Contact sheets and web galleries
* CD, DVD and FTP delivery
* Archiving

Digital Production Charge

A basic charge that helps cover the added expense of the equipment and cards. This flat charge usually is in lieu of a per-image digital capture charge (see next item). Photographers at the low end of the Digital Production Charge spectrum occasionally include separate equipment charges, CD burn charges, etc.
$200 - $850 per day

Digital Capture

This is a charge for every picture shot digitally. It equates to the cost of film and processing, a production charge many editorial clients understand and are comfortable with. As mentioned, some photographers in our survey use this line item in lieu of the previous "digital production charge," billing in the range of $200 -$500 for the first 50 captures and incrementally lowering the rate as the number of captures increase.

Some photographers I know use the following delineation when itemizing this expense:

Fewer than 50 Captures (base minimum): $250
Up to 100 Captures: $300
Up to 200 Captures: $400
Up to 400 Captures: $750
Up to 500 Captures (base maximum per day): $850

Image Prep
Basic downloading and conversion from the camera's memory card to a readily accessible format, such as TIFF or JPG. It is not to be confused with more detailed post-production enhancements. The respondents who included this category often did so in lieu of a digital service fee or a digital capture charge. $10-$75/image

Final File Prep
Any post production work beyond basic downloading and uploading.
$100 - $200/hr
CD burning
$25 - $35
DVD burning
$35 - $75
FTP uploading
$25 - $100
Equipment charge
$150 -$500/day

Photographers having a low "digital production charge," which may be at the insistence of the client, added this expense. This line item has long been a critical component of other equipment-heavy visual media freelancers, such as film video cameramen. As our own investments approach similarly stratospheric levels, we may be wise to reconsider this paradigm.

Contact sheets, prints
$15-25 per contact sheet or straight reference print

It is clear that we are being pressured by clients who are insisting on digital while resisting paying for our added work and investment. It is also clear that if we are to survive, we must make a stand by insisting on added payment for our added services and expenses.

DIGITAL PRODUCTION CHARGE: $300-$1000/day
CD burning: $30 -$50/disk
DVD burning: $50 -$75/disk
FTP uploading: $75 -$150
Digital (inkjet) contact sheets: $20 - $50/contact sheet
Inkjet reference prints: $15 - 30/print
Digital post-production: $150 - $200/hour

I realize that some of you here on DPS, have no intentions of shooting professionally, while others have showed an interest of earning part-time money and a few who want to make a leap of faith right into the business without the slightest clue of what to charge or how to get started. The above prices are what I charge, so you might have to adjust them to fit your economic area and skill level, but here's a ballpark figure to start from as you figure out your "Cost of Doing Business" in figuring your price structures.

[Free]

Sounds alright to gain experience, I'm in the same boat (not the nude part though ) looking to start very soon.

I just figured out how long I'll spend shooting & editing and multiplied by the amount I want to paid an hour and then added on costs of printing and delivery. I've decided that for the first few shoots I'll charge a $20 less and hour than what I plan to charge once I've got a bit more experience. However that's only if I have a signed model release to use the work in my portfolio. You might have a bit more grief getting people to sign model releases for nudes though

Good luck!

[mitchgreene]

Wow! Thanks to all of you. Jim, I really appreciate the candor and detail you've provided. As a personal chef, I expect $100/hour (not including food costs). As a photographer, who until the near future is strictly amateur, nowhere that amount. My concerns were that I'd be charging too little to make the shoot worth my time--thank you for identifying costs that I wasn't considering and that I'd lower the value of photography for "real" pros. While I'm no competition for those who shoot for a living, I know that in any industry there are those who come in at so-called discount rates and they undermine the honest pricing of the true professionals (it has definitely happened in the Personal Chef world). While I've learned that people "get what they pay for" it still has an impact on those who earn their living in the field when a hobbiest starts charging. My goal is not to undermine the professionals, but to be fairly compensated for my modest skills. I'll make sure to explain that when discussing my pricing with this and future clients.

Again, thanks for all of the wonderful replies!
mitch

[Jim Poor]

Charge based on what your work is WORTH not how LONG you've been doing it.

If your work is good enough, there is no reason not to charge just as much as the seasoned photographers in your area.

Originally Posted by mitchgreene

Wow! Thanks to all of you. Jim, I really appreciate the candor and detail you've provided. As a personal chef, I expect $100/hour (not including food costs). As a photographer, who until the near future is strictly amateur, nowhere that amount. My concerns were that I'd be charging too little to make the shoot worth my time--thank you for identifying costs that I wasn't considering and that I'd lower the value of photography for "real" pros. While I'm no competition for those who shoot for a living, I know that in any industry there are those who come in at so-called discount rates and they undermine the honest pricing of the true professionals (it has definitely happened in the Personal Chef world). While I've learned that people "get what they pay for" it still has an impact on those who earn their living in the field when a hobbiest starts charging. My goal is not to undermine the professionals, but to be fairly compensated for my modest skills. I'll make sure to explain that when discussing my pricing with this and future clients.

Again, thanks for all of the wonderful replies!
mitch

[hibou]

But if he's never done it before, how can he be sure that his work is worth anything? (No offense Mitch)

I really don't understand this whole "every photographer must charge like a PRO photographer*" mindset (*pro=anyone who was a photographer pre-digital era). It's not like that in other professions. You don't pay someone with zero education and experience at the same rate as someone with a degree and 10 years of experience. It just isn't done. That's why my haircut is $30 when I get the new girl and $60 when it's the person who runs the salon. Futhermore, good luck justifying your fee with no photos to back it up.

The "pros" are always wahwahwahing about the newbs coming in and stealing their business (lol), but guess what! At this level of work, when your competence is strictly thereotical, the new photographer isn't competing against the pro; the new photographer is competing against the 100 other new photographers who will do it cheaper. That's the real struggle in starting out - finding someone who will take you almost on faith alone, and then getting the shots to build the portfolio which will in turn build your business.

Some people have too much money and are willing to splash out on the most expensive photog because they equate pricetag with quality, but most people are going to want some evidence before parting with their cash. I think $150 is fine considering he's never done it before. If it works out and the photos are good, sure, charge more next time. At least then you'll have something to base it on.

[Jim Poor]

$150 is fine for a sitting fee, but not with all those photos included.

FWIW, I didn't hang out my shingle until well into the digital age and my thoughts have nothing to do with competition, but rather the future of anyone who starts out low-balling and then tries to justify a price increase to something worth while. I've admitted before to making the same mistake when I started and it took a shift to an entirely different market to recover from it.

If the work is worth selling, it is worth selling at a price that makes it worthwhile for the photographer. 10 years of experience means nothing if those 10 years have been spent doing things poorly, just as one year of experience means nothing if the photographer happens to be turning out quality work.

In photography, degrees mean less than nothing so your comparrison is invalid.

[Jim Bryant]

I did all that low balling in my early film years. But once I joined professional organizations and started to learn about the business side of photography I realized those who take pictures for free and or low ball are not only hurting pros in your area but also cheapen photography as a whole. Go out and research, see what your competition charges for the same services. If not.....you'll always be know as that "Cheap" photographer.

hibou -- The "pros" are always wahwahwahing about the newbs coming in and stealing their business (lol), but guess what! At this level of work, when your competence is strictly thereotical, the new photographer isn't competing against the pro; the new photographer is competing against the 100 other new photographers who will do it cheaper. That's the real struggle in starting out - finding someone who will take you almost on faith alone, and then getting the shots to build the portfolio which will in turn build your business. -- Yep it's a shark eat shark world out there!

Why do we feel this way? Because dSLR's have given some folks, who have probably never ever been able to get a decent picture in their lives with a film camera, are now suddenly able to get a decent picture and now use these PhD cameras (Press here dummy) to whore themselves just to get a foot in the marketplace. It wouldn't be so bad if they knew or thought what their actual costs of doing business was or if they even put in account to factor in the cost of cameras, lenses, computers, hardware, software and especially time spent behind the computer, editing, pping, burning Cd or DVD's or using the internet as a way to send images off to their clients. We Pros, believe or not, see the dilemma you're in, that's why we donate our time and experience on forums such as these to help educate and prepare you folks who are truly interested in heading that direction. Or maybe we Pros are just tired of folks getting ripped off by crappy photography and not getting what they paid for. I hear it time and time again. "Man, Jim, I wished we hired you, instead of so and so!" Hey, but you get what you paid for. So...folks....while working cheap to get the experience in order to get your foot in the door, ALSO, either take business classes or check out the photography section at Barnes & Nobles, Border Books or Amazon to EDUCATE yourselves in the art of photography business.