It adds up

[AnneWynne]

I was recently contacted by someone who wants me to Photoshop wedding photos and could I give him a price for 50, 75, and 100 photos. Having not seen the photos, impossible to give a price, but I told him if they average 15 min/photo at $25/hour, it would run $312/$468/$624, but the price could change either way depending on what the photos look like and how much and what type processing he wanted.

I was amazed by how much it adds up when you think in terms of the number of hours it can take to process photos.

Anne

[Xposurepro]

that's where the newbies cut their own throats .. they forget to figure labor into their prices. They charge $15 for 8x10's then kick themselves a year later as they are selling all their camera gear to the pawn shop because they've dug themselves into too big a hole.

[AnneWynne]

It is more than just labor...it is the time and commitment put into learning how to use the technology, it is the ability to see what needs to be done. It is the taxes that need to be paid, the retirement that needs to be considered, the overhead that needs to be paid, the constant upgrading that needs to be done, the seminars and conferences that need to be attended to expand one's skills, and other things like rent, food, and transportation.

I like the advice that I have seen time and time again on this site: don't start out low balling your self...you will just get screwed in the end.

Anne

[OsmosisStudios]

I have a few friends that do weddings and the like on the side to supplement themselves: they're always complaining about hours spent toiling away in front of the computer doing postwork.

That's why I dont do weddings. Well, one reason at least. Even a good portrait shoot can take forever. I make sure that the time is labelled in both the pre-shoot estimate and post-shoot invoice.

[Photoboothguy]

I think this varies on the photographer and the event. The best wedding photographer I know doesn't spend much time post-processing...he gets it right in the field. However, he's also a photojournalistic-style shooter, and doesn't do any Photoshop effects.

My style is similar, but I'm not as good as him The last wedding I shot, I think I took 800 photos over 10 hours (I was the second-shooter, so I didn't do many portraits...mostly candids). From that, I narrowed it down to about 250 or so. Color correction (freaking church was incredibly orange), exposure adjustments, and minor tweaking (vibrance, spot touches, etc) all took me about 5 hours or so. Again, no photoshop effects except for a little vignetting on a few photos.

15/min per photo seems like a lot. If I have to spend that long on a photo, I usually toss it.

[AnneWynne]

Originally Posted by rt80639

I think this varies on the photographer and the event. The best wedding photographer I know doesn't spend much time post-processing...he gets it right in the field. <<<

This is what differentiates a pro-am from a pro. The pro can maximize his/her time and get it right in the camera so there isn't a lot of post-processing.

>>>
15/min per photo seems like a lot. If I have to spend that long on a photo, I usually toss it.

Sometimes I will spend that much time and more because I am doing artistic effects on photos I have taken. I spend a lot less time on "snapshot" type photos. But because this was a wedding, if the shooter did a crappy job and wanted as many as possible saved, it could average 15 minutes (or more) per photo. There was no way I was going to give a firm quote without seeing the photos first.

[olgabe]

Oh, I'm glad this thread appeared just in time for me to ask a question about what *I* think are overly picky clients.. I'm just getting started with doing engagements/weddings on the side - mostly for fun, but nevertheless for a modest fee. As in real modest fee, because I am building my wedding portfolio. I am definitely in the middle of the learning curve on how to communicate with clients effectively and what to offer to make enough money to justify the hours. I usually plan on 2-3 hrs of post processing work after an engagement session.

I offer my clients basic retouching and "artistic processing" on select 20 of images from their engagement session. This couple got their full set of images, selected the ones for additional processing, but did not have any specific instructions except for 3 images where the woman requested to correct loose strands of hair - which I did in the ones she requested. After the images were finished, resized, posted online and so on, they came back to me with more requested changes (on 9 out of 20 images). As an example, I was asked to clean up the hair in these two photos...






Frankly, I did not even notice the hair on her face when I was working on the first image (I was too busy fixing the overxposed jersey I guess!!); on the second one, I did see the separated strand it but did not think it was distracting enough to bother fixing.

I'd love to get your point of views on this.. do you think something like this needs to be fixed? is it reasonable on their behalf to expect it corrected? is it reasonable for the to expect that I would correct it even if they don't point it out? where would you draw the line if this was your client?

I'm starting to think they are too difficult to justify shooting their wedding, so I'm considering bailing out - they are not paying enough to justify extra hours of photoshop work, and I'd rather not shoot it than shoot it and get a bad review... Any opinions?

[Xposurepro]

For starters, I wouldn't bail on them just because you might think they will be an annoying client. They might be. However, you are going to have to deal with the fact that not every client is going to be awesome to work with. You're going to have pain in the ass clients just like every business has walk in the door from time to time. If you finish the job there is a chance that they will act stupid and not speak highly of you. Bail on them and you can bet everything you own they will absolutely talk bad about you and to probably more people than they would have in the first place just because you ticked them off and wasted their time.
At some point you can draw the line and say I can't do anymore retouching for you without charging extra. If a client asks you to do a little something .. especially if you know it will only take a couple minutes .. then do it. The key is to A) not let them know it only takes a few minutes to do and B) let them know that you don't do this for everybody (it doesn't matter if you do or not). Now you have let them know that they are "special" and getting what other people don't plus you are subtly letting them know that there is a limit on what to expect. Some will still try to push it to get more. You just have to say .. we charge extra for additional retouching. Professional rules and limitations make you look more professional and not like somebody they can take advantage of.
As for the photos you've shown. The 2nd isn't that big of a deal. Yes you should have noticed the hair at the time of shooting but you didn't. The composition is nice. The exposure is good. The lighting is flattering.
The first photo you probably shouldn't have bothered shooting. I'm only saying this because of the lighting. You have direct light hitting the scene mixed with shaded light. I know some photographers will notice bad lighting at the time and think .. ok I've already got them posed and I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing so I will take a few shots then move on and delete them later. Don't be afraid to stop dead in your tracks and say .. this ain't working. We need to move over into the shade or something else. Don't stand around waiting for a cloud to come by either. Just pick up and move and keep the shoot moving productively.
You should always make sure to be hard on yourself when picking the shots the client will see. The more picky you are on yourself the less chance they will have to be picky on you. This will create less work for you. Less complaints and more sales.
When your client looked at shot #1 they saw a huge difference, mainly in skin tone and overall balance, compared to shot #2. They want shot #1 to look more like shot #2. The hair in the face is was very noticeable in shot #1. Now they are thinking too much. You flipped a switch in their head to look at the hair in shot #2. Now they are complaining about the hair in shot #2. If they never would have seen shot #1 they would have simply looked at shot #2 by itself and said AWWWWW I Love it.
You mentioned you didn't notice the hair in the face on the first shot because you were too busy fixing the blown out jersey. Next time, don't bother shooting the shot. Then there is nothing to worry about. It's hard for a lot of photographers to not take a shot they planned on shooting because of environmental reasons. It's also hard for them to go through and delete 75% of what they took before showing them to the client. They have the need to save and show everything. If you develop the attitude that if it's not a good shot don't take it. Then combine that with a picky, delete most of what I did, attitude. You will end up with a more streamlined presentation that took a hell of a lot less time to produce. Happy clients and happy sales.

[olgabe]

Originally Posted by Xposurepro

The first photo you probably shouldn't have bothered shooting. I'm only saying this because of the lighting. You have direct light hitting the scene mixed with shaded light. I know some photographers will notice bad lighting at the time and think .. ok I've already got them posed and I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing so I will take a few shots then move on and delete them later. Don't be afraid to stop dead in your tracks and say .. this ain't working. We need to move over into the shade or something else. Don't stand around waiting for a cloud to come by either. Just pick up and move and keep the shoot moving productively.
You should always make sure to be hard on yourself when picking the shots the client will see. The more picky you are on yourself the less chance they will have to be picky on you. This will create less work for you. Less complaints and more sales.

Thank you for a good long reply.. and you are absolutely right, the first shot is not an example of a photo I'm proud of. I felt compelled to include that one because that was the only one in the series with that last set of outfits that had decent expressions and marginally saveable lighting. The woman swapped 5 outfits during the shoot. it took 3.5 hrs instead of 2 (I know, will manage it next time!). When we were saying goodbye in the parking lot, the guy said that he brought his team jersey along (apparently, that was the outfit he wanted to wear all day.. LOL). It was a hike to get to the shade, she had heels on and did not want to go onto the grass, all of that fun.. So when I realized that they won't stop squinting until I turn them back to the sun, I decided to test the limits of my fill flash (and corresponding skills...)... Not a good idea!
Bottom line - I should have just discarded that whole batch rather than trying to save it. Will know for the future.

They have not signed the contract for the wedding, paid a deposit or paid anything for the engagement shoot, so I think I may be able to bail out nicely. My deal is that engagement shoot is free if they book the wedding, and if they don't - there is no sitting fee, but they can purchase individual prints to keep. So depednding on how this goes, I think I can explain that someone else booked their date while they were still thinking. Or would that leave a bad taste too?

[Xposurepro]

Well they could always complain to their friends but if ya think about how it would sound ... "We found this photographer to do our wedding and after talking it over we called them back and they had already booked somebody else for our date." ... "damn they must be good if they're that busy!!!!" ... doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth.

You just always have to keep in mind what your actions will cause people to say.

Ok, so once I turned down a huge monthly contract on a magazine and my method was by busting up laughing at the owner. Now I would never recommend doing something like this. However, in my case, it was for a food fetish magazine and he was WAY too into it. He's trying to conduct a super serious business meeting but the guy is talking about lawn chairs, chocolate sauce and oriental girls ... and going into great depths about what temperature to keep the sauce for the best results and I just couldn't keep a straight face any longer. He never called me back. LOL