Presenting images to client/ public...

[waffles]

For different situations, I have different methods.

Sports stuff I pack a CD full for the editor. Even if there's something that I feel isn't 100% great, there are games that I can't go to so we need to build up a reserve for those. Especially away games, since I'll probably only get to 3 of those all year long.

I did another pair of shoots for Donar Relations. In the first one I got between 3 and 400 total shots. Most were pretty good, some weren't. I went through and took out the bad ones. Then I went through and took out ones that were really similar to other ones. I had no idea what they wanted really since it was my first job for them so they ended up getting about 200 shots.

I did anther job with roughly the same workflow that resulted in around 30 shots. There's only so much you can do when the event is largely someone talking to an audience and everyone runs out quick afterward so you can't even get reception time.

[sk66]

Originally Posted by jdepould

Expectations are inversely proportional to the size of your paycheck.

LOL! That's always the way it is!

But, I think that has something to do with being perceived as a professional. And part of being a "professional" is demanding the very best from yourself. If you are very demanding of yourself, and won't settle for anything but your very best, then the "quantity" of product delivered will be very low, very expensive, or both.

But if you are operating in that realm, you have to be able to deliver!

[Mr Guy]

Originally Posted by chalkie7

2) several of these shots appeared on social networking sites within hours without my consent!

I keep finding new ways to say this, but I still think it needs to be kept in mind. Department and grocery stores have a concept called "shrinkage" used to account for theft, spoilage, breakage and other things that accounts for the difference between items brought into the store and items actually sold. Their profit margins account for this. Likewise, photographers are going to have a certain amount of their pictures that are valuable enough for people to want to share, but not so much they'd actually order a print. The sitting fee or digital media/view fee needs to be enough to account for this and still make a profit.

I still firmly believe we're going to, in the near future, have a large swing back toward having sitting fees, processing fees, and very few packages of prints actually sold.

[sk66]

Originally Posted by Mr Guy

I still firmly believe we're going to, in the near future, have a large swing back toward having sitting fees, processing fees, and very few packages of prints actually sold.

I wouldn't want to be trying to make a living from photography these days...
It was hard enough before...Now the tools are getting good enough AND cheap enough that almost anyone can become a "professional photographer."

I keep getting wrapped into doing "sittings" for friends. I don't really want to do it, portraiture's not my thing. I'm taking money away from the pros.

The only difference is I don't think they would go to a pro, they'd just not have the pictures...

[katsclass]

Originally Posted by Mr Guy

I still firmly believe we're going to, in the near future, have a large swing back toward having sitting fees, processing fees, and very few packages of prints actually sold.

Mine are all rolled into one. You don't get the high res files period, you can have low res with my largest package, or add it on to theothers but few do that. It really depends on what the great professional photographers (the ones that will be around for more than a year) will offer and it is simply not profitable to sell files, no matter how large your sitting fee is, so I don't see it really going in that direction.

[steelese]

Originally Posted by Mr Guy

I still firmly believe we're going to, in the near future, have a large swing back toward having sitting fees, processing fees, and very few packages of prints actually sold.

I think that is where it is going as well. I actually have almost completely moved that way. It is my personal opinion, and a legal one, that a work for hire is not owned by the artist, but owned by the person who hired the artist. We have got around to some extent through contract law, and by the fact that that many countries have started moving toward the continental European view of artists rights.

In every other industry we pay to have someone do something and we get what they have done. We do not need to go an buy it from them. The whole idea that we need to control prints is an ego thing that most photographers need to deflate from their heads.

I am not in the business of making and selling prints. There are artists who do that, and that is the job of my print house. I am a photographer, and I am in the business of photographing things. So that is what I charge for.

I think of all the times my wife pulls out coupons for some house that says you get a free sitting and a bunch of useless sized prints. I tell her I'll have someone I know do it. She complains that we have to pay them to take the picture. I always complain that we end up paying for the sitting by buying poor quality prints.

I do make money on my prints, but it just covers my time of ordering and handling. I make my money on the services I actually offer. I charge a sitting fee. If it is out of the studio and I travel I charge location and travel fees. I charge more for more people because it is more work. I charge for PP beyond the standard crop and toning. If she has acne she wants out, I charge for it. In the end I have made more money doing this than I did selling prints. I sell them the digital negatives for a very reasonable fee. They can choose to have them printed where ever they want, but a good sales person knows how to get them to print with you. I make a little extra money and I am done.

We need to get back to actually charging for what we do. We have too long decided as photographers that we need to compete with the Sears model of photography.

People will come to us. There will always be a market. When times get tough only the strong survive. I feel bad for the photographers who are not making enough money to stay in business, but maybe it's time you change you business model, improve you technique or get out of the business. I think the last is the best option for most.

Okay, there is my rant. We sure have had a lot of those lately.

[sarahgirl777]

Originally Posted by sk66

So, "learning the hard way" huh? Not really, sounds like you've done fine. Any concerns for the "sentimental pics"? (although I'd say senior portraits/engagement isn't quite the same as an actual wedding)

Yea, I think a lot of it is learning what works best for you as you go. I am finding that a good photo really gets shown off though and word of mouth travels fast so you better put your best out there. However that senior I gave more than I should have to, has gotten me another senior shoot and a wedding, so I can't really complain about that.

Now for the wedding, that's a different story, the portraits, those will go through more tough weeding out, but the snapshots of the event, well those are different, I think people expect nicely lit/ exposed caputre the moment snapshots. So I'll just watch my composition and lighting and try to capture feeling and expression in them and that will be adequate I think. My brides words were "I'd just like some nice pictures to remember the day by" I think that sums it up!

[Mr Guy]

Originally Posted by katsclass

Mine are all rolled into one. You don't get the high res files period, you can have low res with my largest package, or add it on to theothers but few do that. It really depends on what the great professional photographers (the ones that will be around for more than a year) will offer and it is simply not profitable to sell files, no matter how large your sitting fee is, so I don't see it really going in that direction.

Professionals will offer what the customer will pay for. If their business dries up because no longer need or desire prints, they'll either adapt or die. Just remember, every time someone buys a digital picture frame, that's a vote against the old model. The idea that it's not profitable to sell files is silly. A thousand dollar package is a thousand dollar package, whether you've got print outs in there or a CD. Profitability is about money in versus money out, not how it shows up on your price list.

[Liz Caldwell]

Originally Posted by sk66

A general question.
In my browsing the web I have come across a large number of websites with what appears to be every photo from every shoot. Some pictures are marginal at best.
Now I personally wouldn't put anything but my very best images up on a promotional website (portfolio) even if it meant I couldn't use any from a particular shoot.

But what about when presenting images to a client for selection? Do you really show them all of the pics taken? I would think you almost have to because even a crappy snapshot might have personal meaning to someone...
However, I don't think most customers "expect" to have to cull thru a bunch of "OK" shots, and having to do so might seem negative. It would seem to have the risk of creating an impression that you're not very good.

In magazine type shoots, you're expected to take a ton of pics to get a few keepers. But you get paid for the shoot to get maybe a few good ones.

I think for "personal events" the expectation is MUCH higher while the conditions may be much more difficult.

I don't know, I'm thinking one should "contract" to provide a certain number of good pics from an event (maybe per photographer/helper?) and then present a pre-sorted selection to the clients of only the better shots.

I think this would create a better impression overall. You can always allow them to look thru the "out-takes" if they wanted, and you could then "give them away" at cost (or minimal markup) "as a wedding gift" or some such.
I wouldn't think you really should be charging "full price" for marginal images.

This might disassociate the marginal images from your "professional image"?

So, how do you approach this? I'm not in this field, but I'm curious...

I almost always overshoot on purpose. I'd rather take 3 extra poses of one person and drop 2 of them than to present the only 2 bad photos I have of the person. If a customer asks about the missing pose I just tell them the truth, "it wasn't the most flattering shot"

When it comes to events, I usually take 300-500 and end up giving the customer the best 100 or so. I never tell the customer how many photos I actually have.

[JerBear]

When you are shooting a event, contract for a range of photos to be delivered, say for a wedding of four hour duration you will supply 400 to 700 photos (Not what I supply, but just for this discussion). Then shoot the event, go though the shots and select the bad ones and DUMP, then select the marginal ones, put aside. The rest PP and then present to client. If and this does happen, the client asks if you got a "shot" of so and so, go through your marginal, fix as best you can and show.

Also, whatever you contract for in numbers, say 400 to 700, shoot more and end up with a cushion of at least 20%. Always deliver more, never heard anyone complain about that.... As to the marginal, NO do not give those out later. That is what will represent you and those that do not know the whole story, ie see all the photos (Who wants to look at your 700 photos of your wedding?) will surmise your work is not up to their standards.

Every shot you take is not a "Keeper"

Good shooting

JM