I'm callin the brain trust

[Daisho]

@nire...
I differentiate between disagree but driving the issue buy asking the solid questions or making the found suggestion and just plain outright going against what is asked/said.
If I tell you I have a certain price structure which is assumed as fixed it should be assumed as such and not your first input being, your price is wrong. Why? Because we both know there are people getting paid lots and even more so, question is, what do they do or say to get there? This was the point and not, is the price the right one.

@Rlucas
Well, I work at a company where we sell a product that is most times equal, some times better and some times inferior at a double up to triple price premium compared to the market and successfully so. Yeah, you can look at this from a price point and say, I want to do my profit by volume (aka. little profit but lots of it) where I would like to take the approach of profit by margin (aka. bigger profit, less work and not even so far but where I say, fair price for good product).
I could go and ask myself where can I go down (for instance print at a low end lab) but this in the end would also effect quality. And I can't un-invest time and money already spend, thus I take them into the equation.
Oh and an apple is sometimes "just" an apple but even here, I can tell you that an apple can be a "table apple" or a "juice apple" and this makes them price wise different and quite so, question is, how you look at it? And I was asking how I could change how people are looking at my apple.

[Niresangwa]

Originally Posted by Daisho

@nire...
I differentiate between disagree but driving the issue buy asking the solid questions or making the found suggestion and just plain outright going against what is asked/said.
If I tell you I have a certain price structure which is assumed as fixed it should be assumed as such and not your first input being, your price is wrong. Why? Because we both know there are people getting paid lots and even more so, question is, what do they do or say to get there? This was the point and not, is the price the right one.

I did not say the 'price was wrong'.

I said you were wrong to assume that the fault is with the customer's perception of relative value.

I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to move into the fluid realm of persuasion and marketing to bypass and hopefully nullify any discrepancy between perceived value of the product by the photographer and the client.

My point is if your product is good enough, and your price point accurately reflects the market, this is less of an issue.

What really twists my tit however, is the photographer who is so sure of themselves, and so puffed up with industry propaganda that they genuinely believe that their perception is unassailable and the client is wrong.

Let's cut to the chase.

If someone isn't hiring you consistently, there's a mismatch between your price point in that market and your product and your brand.

[Daisho]

Originally Posted by Niresangwa

I said you were wrong to assume that the fault is with the customer's perception of relative value.

Well, I have that funny notion that, if communicated the right way, I can "adjust" this. I assume that the customer under the right circumstances would be willing to take your price point. I said the problem was not the price perception of the customer but the way I communicated my price perception in order to change his.

Originally Posted by Niresangwa

I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to move into the fluid realm of persuasion and marketing to bypass and hopefully nullify any discrepancy between perceived value of the product by the photographer and the client.

IF you want to put it this way, yes. I was asking for methods of how to in order to reduce the number of "not clients".

Originally Posted by Niresangwa

My point is if your product is good enough, and your price point accurately reflects the market, this is less of an issue.

Here we get into the problem. And one that has been discussed to length here on the board, is the market price, for instance in your area a real reflection of what goes into the product? Again, problem being that for most people the only way of comparing photography is by price, but if "educated" on the subject they might change their take. How do I "educate" them so they can make the distinction between cheep/low quality and fair price/good quality?

Originally Posted by Niresangwa

If someone isn't hiring you consistently, there's a mismatch between your price point in that market and your product and your brand.

Wow, thank you for throwing in brand there. Because this is perceived aggregated value that I'm talking about. Because if you just go by a picture is just a picture, then I will stand no chance against the uncle who is doing the thing for free, but if we move into the brand/more value thing then we start to play. How to build said brand/higher value image?!

And as I've learned, in my special case price/value was not the final problem, cheap ba$t$%! said the venue was not worth that high quality/price coverage (along the lines, it is just my brothers 60th, can be less). How do I fix that?! How do I tell the guy that even this event deserves good pictures?

Sorry, gotta agree with Steve on this one.

Yes, there are great examples in several industries where people pay way too much for a product due to good marketing. Monster Cable is probably the best example, but there really aren't that many. Why? Because you have to have a quality product to back up the high price, otherwise your strategy will eventually fall apart.

You want to see a great marketing strategy? Look at AFLAC. A stupid duck turned the company into a financial monster in very short period of time.

Think about it. If you saw a list of supplemental insurance providers, how many would you actually recognize? How many people do you think research AFLAC on name recognition only?

That's really what your marketing strategy needs to be. When people think photography, your business should be well-known and recognized. It should be one of the top Google searches, and when people see it they say "Oh, I've heard of that guy".

Marketing is grabbing the person's attention, if only for a few seconds, to consider your product. Once you have their attention, your product should sell itself. If you are losing clients at this stage, then you have a quality/price issue.

[scootermcq]

I would say yes & no to some statements here. If you educate your customer to what the market is and why people have a lower rate than you and what they are sacrificing by going with a lower rate some will come up, and some are price driven only. Now, if you price yourself at 5,000 and equally capable photographers are 3,000 and you have no edge to market.... you will not book anyone.

As an example, there are lots of wedding photographers selling $300 all day packages. If it was all about price only, why would anyone book a $2,000 or $5,000 wedding shooter?? The obvious answer is their product is better than 98% of the competition AND photography is important to that couple.

[brianxlt]

A product isn't worth anything to anyone unless they decide they need or want it. Then it comes down to how much they are willing to pay. I can get a photo package say 1-8x10 2-5x7s and 3-4x6s from any number of photographers in my area with varying quality ether perceived or actual. It is solely up to me if I want to pay $100 or $1000 for the package. It will be up to the marketing or the business to convince me to buy the higher priced one. The lower priced one is a given as in most people will want something for nothing, but don't realize they are still being had.
The consumer doesn't want to pay for my camera, lights, time or anything that cost me money they just want what they want and for a good price. They don't want to hear that I have x number of $$ invested in my gear or education or any of that they want good service and quality product. Again it is up to the business to convince me this is what I want and I will pay the amount they are asking or I will take my money elsewhere. Art and collectibles are always subject to the economy and how much the average consumer has to spend. In today's economy it is hard to get a good (seller) price on a service or product that is not a living necessity. Food, gas, power and water no matter how much they charge people will pay for it (may use it sparingly, but still they will buy it. Photos of loved ones, not a necessity and only a select few want these type of things. With the now digital age and the quality of consumer cameras and printers it will only get harder for the professionals out there. Will the photography industry ever be lifted to a higher level probably not. After all a photograph is art, you don't drive it, use it, eat it or need it - so only those who want it will get it.

[RLucas]

Originally Posted by Niresangwa

I did not say the 'price was wrong'.

I said you were wrong to assume that the fault is with the customer's perception of relative value.

I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to move into the fluid realm of persuasion and marketing to bypass and hopefully nullify any discrepancy between perceived value of the product by the photographer and the client.

My point is if your product is good enough, and your price point accurately reflects the market, this is less of an issue.

What really twists my tit however, is the photographer who is so sure of themselves, and so puffed up with industry propaganda that they genuinely believe that their perception is unassailable and the client is wrong.

Let's cut to the chase.

If someone isn't hiring you consistently, there's a mismatch between your price point in that market and your product and your brand.

Haha! Is it ok if I just point and nod to your posts from now on?

[Niresangwa]

Originally Posted by RLucas

Haha! Is it ok if I just point and nod to your posts from now on?

I assume most people already do.

Probably more like just point and shake their heads, but same difference...

Anyways, I guess I'm just starting to find this whole issue as irritating. It just seems so pretentious to make the assumption that people won't buy because they're ignorant, as opposed to because the product isn't worth it to them.

Even more so because people get so righteous about changing people's minds.

That mysterious 'X-factor' that we supposedly feel we have a right to impose on clients via the price point, well, it's not that mysterious at all.. it should be reflected in your work. If you have technical experience, your brand's personality and a creative influence in your work it should be readily apparent...

...if it's not, well maybe you're not as technically and creatively good enough, and maybe your brand isn't interesting enough.

This is just another strand in the unfolding changes the photography industry is obviously going through, whether you like it or not.

Then again, what the hell do I know...