Question/Opinions

[DanielLane]

Ok, so I have to do some odd shots for Koloa Rum. I have to take their four types of rum and photograph the bottles around the island in some picturesque places. (waterfalls, oceanside, etc.) I have to take the photos first, and after I show them to them, they will decide which ones they want. That part is pretty normal. But they want quite a few to choose from, but are only going to buy 5 for the first quarter of the year. They want exclusive rights to the photos. At most I can put them in my portfolio, but that's it. Not even onto my blog. I understand everything they want, and already know the shots I will take. But those shots will be taken all over the island, from sunrise to sunset. So the time involved in getting the shots is huge. I will probably work for a week straight to get and process the shots. (I can only hit one sunrise or sunset a day and need multiple locations...)

So here is the dilemma. They are a new company, but with huge potential. These shots will go into national and international magazines. Huge exposure for them (and me as well). But being a new company, they do not have a huge advertising budget as of yet. They aren't Bacardi or anything like that. My problem is, what do I charge them. If I ask for too much, they will just go with a different photographer or even some old shots. If I ask too little, I'm spending more to get the shots than I make. Any of you out there have an opinion or thoughts on what I should charge for this one. I'm trying to be fair to them and to myself as well. My time is worth something, so I want to get paid, but I would like to keep shooting for them for future ads and promotions. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[oldwolf]

So they want you to do a lot of work with the possibility of buying 5 images? Sounds like you'll lose a lot of time and money that way. Especially if they aren't paying you yet.

I understand that they're a new company but how confident are you that they'll use you later and they'll get you good exposure? Do you have a written contract?

I'd be very careful with how much time, money and energy you spend on this and get a solid contract.

If you can hit some of these locations while doing other shoots then that would save you some money.

[Jim Bryant]

Originally Posted by oldwolf

So they want you to do a lot of work with the possibility of buying 5 images? Sounds like you'll lose a lot of time and money that way. Especially if they aren't paying you yet.

I understand that they're a new company but how confident are you that they'll use you later and they'll get you good exposure? Do you have a written contract?

I'd be very careful with how much time, money and energy you spend on this and get a solid contract.

If you can hit some of these locations while doing other shoots then that would save you some money.

\

How true! Working for free in the hopes of landing future jobs...not good! Nine times out of ten, when a company expands, they hire an advertising agency to promote them, who will, in turn, hire trusted photographers they have used in the past.

[Jim Bryant]

Originally Posted by DanielLane

Ok, so I have to do some odd shots for Koloa Rum. I have to take their four types of rum and photograph the bottles around the island in some picturesque places. (waterfalls, oceanside, etc.) I have to take the photos first, and after I show them to them, they will decide which ones they want. That part is pretty normal. But they want quite a few to choose from, but are only going to buy 5 for the first quarter of the year. They want exclusive rights to the photos. At most I can put them in my portfolio, but that's it. Not even onto my blog. I understand everything they want, and already know the shots I will take. But those shots will be taken all over the island, from sunrise to sunset. So the time involved in getting the shots is huge. I will probably work for a week straight to get and process the shots. (I can only hit one sunrise or sunset a day and need multiple locations...)

So here is the dilemma. They are a new company, but with huge potential. These shots will go into national and international magazines. Huge exposure for them (and me as well). But being a new company, they do not have a huge advertising budget as of yet. They aren't Bacardi or anything like that. My problem is, what do I charge them. If I ask for too much, they will just go with a different photographer or even some old shots. If I ask too little, I'm spending more to get the shots than I make. Any of you out there have an opinion or thoughts on what I should charge for this one. I'm trying to be fair to them and to myself as well. My time is worth something, so I want to get paid, but I would like to keep shooting for them for future ads and promotions. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

They want all those rights? Then you should charge a lot of money!

[DanielLane]

there will be a contract at the end of next week. I have to put in my input on prices for the contract on monday. They will guarantee to buy at least five shots. I will be able to multitask. I'm not hiking all the way in to some of these waterfalls just for their shots. I will have to get a few for my self of course.

They like all of the other shots I have done for others around the island and elsewhere. If they like my prices and we both sign the contract, I will be their photographer for 1 year. They will buy a minimum of 5 shots per quarter for their magazine promotions, as well as use me to photograph for other misc. ads and their web site. They also hinted at needing me to go to the next Rum tasting competition in Miami. They won best dark rum (worldwide) this past march there and are going back this march to try and retain the title. They had no photographer there last year and missed out on any photo opportunities for that one. The don't want to miss out on it again.

I know I should charge "a lot" for the shots since it will be their photo and theirs alone. But it ill also be a nice contract to have for the year. Still stumped...

[Jim Poor]

I'd charge them a day rate in this case which would include "up to" five shots with others available at additional charge.

Originally Posted by DanielLane

there will be a contract at the end of next week. I have to put in my input on prices for the contract on monday. They will guarantee to buy at least five shots. I will be able to multitask. I'm not hiking all the way in to some of these waterfalls just for their shots. I will have to get a few for my self of course.

They like all of the other shots I have done for others around the island and elsewhere. If they like my prices and we both sign the contract, I will be their photographer for 1 year. They will buy a minimum of 5 shots per quarter for their magazine promotions, as well as use me to photograph for other misc. ads and their web site. They also hinted at needing me to go to the next Rum tasting competition in Miami. They won best dark rum (worldwide) this past march there and are going back this march to try and retain the title. They had no photographer there last year and missed out on any photo opportunities for that one. The don't want to miss out on it again.

I know I should charge "a lot" for the shots since it will be their photo and theirs alone. But it ill also be a nice contract to have for the year. Still stumped...

[andyw]

If they are planning on putting these ads in international and national magazines then do not be conned by the "we only have a small budget" statement.

Their advertising budget will be fairly to very large. For a very quick example here are the advertising page rates for Bauer publishing magazines
Magazine Advertising Rate Card - Bauer Media
So a couple of half page ads in FHM for instance is going to cost them 20k plus.

In the UK if you want an ad in a newspaper the rate ranges from about £250 for a quarter page in a local paper to £30,000 for a full page in the Daily Mail.

There are some photographers who charge a percentage of the overall advertising budget but personally I would charge a day rate and then a license for the individual images based on the actual usage.


If you are likely to be the "preferred" photographer for future campaigns/commissions then you can adjust your pricing based on the amount of work for the year or whatever, but you still have to go in with a proper price for this specific job and that should in the 000's rather than the 00's

[Biomech]

I don't want to hijack your thread or anything, but it does pose an interesting question.

At what point do you hike your prices? If you charge say, £25/$40 per hour, why/should you charge more for bigger clients? It seems unfair and unmoral to crank the price up just because the client is a global corporation. On the other hand, if you are working with a big client then you're getting somewhere.

[sk66]

Originally Posted by Biomech

I don't want to hijack your thread or anything, but it does pose an interesting question.

At what point do you hike your prices? If you charge say, £25/$40 per hour, why/should you charge more for bigger clients? It seems unfair and unmoral to crank the price up just because the client is a global corporation. On the other hand, if you are working with a big client then you're getting somewhere.

I think this is kind of where you have to start thinking more about selling your "art" rather than your skill...
They are asking for "creative" shots taking in demanding conditions with significant effort... It's not a light table shoot.

When selling your "art" the hourly can be huge, it's a different mindset.

I agree with the others. Unless there is some kind of contract for future work, all you really have is this job. Don't give it away hoping for future work.

The counter side to this is it COULD be a great opportunity and an open door. If going to these locations and taking pictures is something you would like to do anyways maybe it's worth taking the risk. More than one has gotten their break by working their way in at the ground floor. To a certain extent it requires recognition and demand in order to sell your work as "art". Regardless, your price should at least cover all expenses and time at your regular hourly...that would (should) be considered cheap. If you don't have an hourly rate for photography, at least use what you make hourly at your regular job.

[DanielLane]

I do have an hourly rate for photo work and also have a half or full day rate. I had not thought of charging them in that way. Good idea. Now I just need to estimate how long the shoots will take (days) and divide it by 5 since they want 5 shots.

For sure not the normal way I would do this, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do for some jobs...

Now I also have to find out what it would cost to build a Tiki Bar out of bamboo. They liked an idea I pitched them about an "Island Feel" to future photo ads. Then there is picking my models to be bartender and patron and getting their rates... ugh... this just keeps getting bigger and bigger... lol, I'm not complaining it's just a LOT to do with all else I have going on. I just got two more clients yesterday as well! yow!

So do any of you know someone on Kauai that builds out of bamboo?