Happy Problem--right place, right time

[amy_bb]

(I am fully bubble wrapped and prepared for all responses).

I started my local sports shooter business in August. I'm enjoying it, learning a lot and the way I've set it up, I've at least made up my initial business investment costs (not the camera and lens, of course, but the filings, web addy purchase, etc).

Yesterday, I got an SOS call from a friend who works in the local orthodontist office. She was running an ad in the city glossy mag and, to make a long story short, she didn't have the pics she wanted for the publication (ad deadline got moved and the full service photog she planned to use was not available). She asked me to come in and take some headshots of the doc and some "working on patient" shots. I did that and turned them in to the ad sales woman at the glossy mag (also a friend of mine/ours). Everyone is pleased with the shots.
The ad sales woman tells me she will have more work for me of similar nature. Simple, ad or article shots for clients who do not need complicated work.

Question: I plan to charge $50/hr for this and will charge for any extensive processing time (although the mag has hired staff for processing, I want to submit professional looking pics that require minimal work). I only want to retain the right to use these photos in a portfolio or in a marketing capacity on my website to obtain future work.

The ad sales woman knows that I have limited experience in this area but is willing to give me a chance.

Does this work require a contract or just an invoice. I don't anticipate, in this early stage, that my on site time will be more than an hour at most. I do not care if others eventually use these images for other purposes (advertising) as long as I can as well.

I'm trying to make this situation professional and valued with the realization that my services are being requested b/c I am flexible, easy to work with and fairly priced. I realize, as does she, that I do not have complex light set ups but can accomplish most simple shots with what I have (and a hell of a lot of reading and practice in the next few weeks!)

Advice appreciated.

[Sweetlifephoto]

There are two resources out there that would probably be very helpful. 1.) ASMP.org American Society of Media Photographers has great content on pricing and commercial / editorial photography.

2.) If you are not a member of PPA, I would recommend joining, especially for the indemnity services, info and insurance services.

Speaking of insurance if you don't have business insurance you need to get that as well. If anyone is injured during one of your shoots, tripping over a light stand or falling down your business could be held liable. This also covers errors and omissions if you aren't able to perform. Additionally more and more venues and public spaces are requiring proof of insurance before they will allow you to shoot commercially at them.

I would never shoot for a commercial customer without a contract and a statement of work which outlines exactly what I am providing, time frames and any terms and conditions on usage. PPA is a great resource for this type of info and boilerplate contracts.

[Rentham]

Originally Posted by amy_bb

Does this work require a contract or just an invoice.

Put on your big girl ears and watch this:

2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. from San Francisco Creative Mornings on Vimeo.

[amy_bb]

Originally Posted by Rentham

Put on your big girl ears and watch this:

2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. from San Francisco Creative Mornings on Vimeo.

Awesome! Thanks! I think that I will chant that phrase often throughout the day. I've listened/watched about half of the video so apologies if it covers the topics below in the latter half.

On the plus side..I do have a lawyer. In fact, my lawyer and I are so close I feel comfortable yelling at him to put his dirty laundry IN the hamper, rather than on the floor and often expect him to pick up milk and bread on the way home from work

Originally Posted by Sweetlifephoto

There are two resources out there that would probably be very helpful. 1.) ASMP.org American Society of Media Photographers has great content on pricing and commercial / editorial photography.

2.) If you are not a member of PPA, I would recommend joining, especially for the indemnity services, info and insurance services.

Speaking of insurance if you don't have business insurance you need to get that as well. If anyone is injured during one of your shoots, tripping over a light stand or falling down your business could be held liable. This also covers errors and omissions if you aren't able to perform. Additionally more and more venues and public spaces are requiring proof of insurance before they will allow you to shoot commercially at them.

I would never shoot for a commercial customer without a contract and a statement of work which outlines exactly what I am providing, time frames and any terms and conditions on usage. PPA is a great resource for this type of info and boilerplate contracts.

All good information. I think an "aspiring photographer" membership is a good idea for me. Thanks for pointing me in this direction.

So you are me for a minute (lucky);

You have done one head shot/office shot of a local dentist. You may do one head shot/office shot of another local business owner. You may get a few other gigs---nothing scheduled at this pont. As or right now, no light stands, no other gear. I deliver a few possibly useable shots for ad or article work.

At what point does the cost of the business insurance make sense? What is the true risk of me, a few quick shots, out the door. PPA has a general policy that for me, says it will cost $312 per year. Anyone else have this policy? I'm having the lawyer mentioned above look at it right now (happens to specialize in insurance defense).

Lawyer's opinion as of right now? Not necessary (disclaimer--if client were to require it then that would change the picture). Cost currently outweighs the risk.


Argue away.

[andyw]

Originally Posted by amy_bb

At what point does the cost of the business insurance make sense? What is the true risk of me, a few quick shots, out the door.

As soon as you charge for a shoot you are in business. You should therefore have business and liability insurance.
The risk to you is potentially massive.
What if you drop the lens on the clients foot - insurance claim
what if the pictures are total crap (according to the client) - insurance claim
what if your card fails and you don't get the one off shot - insurance claim
And any number of other situations.
Many businesses will not let you set foot in their premises without liability insurance.

Originally Posted by amy_bb

Lawyer's opinion as of right now? Not necessary (disclaimer--if client were to require it then that would change the picture). Cost currently outweighs the risk.

I am surprised your lawyer doesn't think you need it.
How will he get paid if there is a claim against you and you lose. Your insurance should be covering legal fees.

Originally Posted by amy_bb

Argue away.

Nothing to argue about - you need insurance and should have it.

[amy_bb]

Originally Posted by andyw

As soon as you charge for a shoot you are in business. You should therefore have business and liability insurance.
The risk to you is potentially massive.
What if you drop the lens on the clients foot - insurance claim
what if the pictures are total crap (according to the client) - insurance claim
what if your card fails and you don't get the one off shot - insurance claim
And any number of other situations.
Many businesses will not let you set foot in their premises without liability insurance.



I am surprised your lawyer doesn't think you need it.
How will he get paid if there is a claim against you and you lose. Your insurance should be covering legal fees.




Nothing to argue about - you need insurance and should have it.

Appreciate your response.

Husband=lawyer. No legal fees to pay except filing fees which are minimal. How I would pay him is a trade secret

Agreed that insurance is key to get certain jobs and that will be taken into consideration.

The thought process here is that the situations you described above are within what we are comfortable self-insuring based on the true risk and cost of those situations. The though is that we would rather have our money than give it to the carrier for these smaller issues. Right now the only deliverable I would be promising is a few head shots. If the card failed, if the shots were crappy or if I just didn't show up, I wouldn't get paid and would lose future work and someone else would get the gig. I am not currently taking any jobs with high risk of my failures having a large impact on any client.

I did have husband reread the policy offered by PPA and we agreed that if I get any more of these jobs I would pick up the insurance.

[Sweetlifephoto]

Originally Posted by amy_bb

Agreed that insurance is key to get certain jobs and that will be taken into consideration.

Right now the only deliverable I would be promising is a few head shots. If the card failed, if the shots were crappy or if I just didn't show up, I wouldn't get paid and would lose future work and someone else would get the gig. I am not currently taking any jobs with high risk of my failures having a large impact on any client..

Your decision, your business, your risk. It is a bad idea. You are making an assumption that if you didn't deliver on these "small" jobs the only consequence is that you just won't get paid and might lose follow-up business. This could be a costly assumption. Are you set up as an LLC or S-corp that provides legal protection for your personal assets? If not you are also now putting your personal assets at risk as well.

If you want to be taken seriously as a business, then you have to treat what you are doing as a serious business.

[amy_bb]

Originally Posted by Sweetlifephoto

Your decision, your business, your risk. It is a bad idea. You are making an assumption that if you didn't deliver on these "small" jobs the only consequence is that you just won't get paid and might lose follow-up business. This could be a costly assumption. Are you set up as an LLC or S-corp that provides legal protection for your personal assets? If not you are also now putting your personal assets at risk as well.

If you want to be taken seriously as a business, then you have to treat what you are doing as a serious business.

Thanks, I truly appreciate your educated and experienced response. This thread is typically a place where people don't like the advice they are given get super defensive. I understand your recommendation and am glad to hear your advice. If insurance was required for any job I was going to do then I would get it for that reason.

Question for you;

As you describe the need for insurance in my current, low volume business model, I'm curious to hear the potential realistic liabilties other than dropping my lens on someone's foot or causing a minor injury do to tripping and falling. I want to see what I'm missing so that I can be comfortable in any decision that I make. The reason I ask is that in my household, we take insurance for catastrophic, expensive situations and pay the every day stuff ourselves (we have a VERY high deductible health insurance plan, for instance and high deductibles for car and home coverage). I'm trying to envision a scenario where I could cause a very expensive liability doing what I'm currently doing. AndyW listed a few things but honestly, I have a hard time seeing how my taking a bad headshot that is not useable for an advertisement would be punished by anything more than no pay and no future work. I know that if volume or complexity of my work increased the liability issues would be very obvious. My husband specializes in insurance defense law and sees lawsuits on a daily basis and agrees that people will sue for anything. Having insurance won't prevent them from suing and suing does not mean they will get anything from you.

Interested in the discussion.

[andyw]

I will apologise at the start of this because it is probably going to sound rude and terse.

You said in your first post. "I started my local sports shooter business in August."

You then went on to say that you were getting some jobs doing headshots etc.
So you are obviously trying to build/expand the "business".

I have to say that if your business cannot afford $312 for PROPER business and liability insurance then you should give up now.

My "examples" of dropping a lens on someones foot were just daft examples of what people (especially in the US) will sue you for.

If you think that someone tripping on your equipment and breaking their arm or leg or potentially wrecking someones deadlined press release because your shots did not come out will be cheap then you really really need to think again.

There are a thousand and one examples of where a simple accident could end up being extremely expensive for you/your business.

I ended up paying (or rather my insurance paid) over £2000 to have a boardroom table repaired and revarnished once because an assistant dropped a prop onto it and scratched it. Simple "cheap" accident.

I know of a commercial photographer who was working to a deadline and the film got screwed up. He ended up having to do a reshoot at his cost of over £8000 and also pay costs for the deadline having to be extended. Without insurance that would have been out of his pocket.
I could give you loads of real world examples of "cheap" accidents not being so cheap.

Those two were not massive but can easily cause problems to a small photography studios bottom line, the company on the second example were a small company and costs were not massive.
Had that been a big multi national with a world wide campaign on the go then the costs could have been massive.
You may be thinking small now but you will never grow if that is how you are approaching the business.

Bottom line here is if you are going to call yourself a business then act like one and do things properly from the START.

[Jim Bryant]

I hope you're taking in account of travel time, mileage, a digital capture fee per image, downloading, editing, post processing time, cdv/dvd burning and number of views. You need to get John Harrington's book, Best Business Practices for Photographers. Get a contract for everything. Now, with what you charged after taking out your expenses and such, that $50.00 per hour sounds great, but in general, you lost money.

andyw is right on about the insurance part. You need to be able to cover your butt incase something happens. Believe me, there are those out there hoping something will happen.

Once, I was taking portraits of a family and their kids were running around and just about tripping over the cables. I told the lady, if you're kids knock over my lights you're going to have to buy me a new set. She informed me that if they tripped them over and something fell on them or they got hurt then she'll own my lights and everything else. I told her I was covered for taking pictures of stupid clients, as of now this photo session is over and please don't let the door hit her in the butt when leaving. She asked for the scheduling fee refund and I told her she was paying for wasting my time.