Pricing photography

[danbaileyphoto]

Recently, another photographer contacted me to ask for pricing advice on a job that he just shot. Although he's just starting out professionally, his work is very good and the job he shot was definitely pro caliber.

He had already billed the job at $350, but he wanted to know I would have charged. So, I plugged in the numbers and usage details, and came up with a figure that was close to $3,000. That was for specified magazine and web use for two years. However, if I were to grant unlimited two year rights, which is what this photographer granted his client, the figure would have been closer to $15,000. Not saying that he what have, or should have gotten exactly that amount, but his starting point should have been much higher.

I don't way this in any way to belittle this particular photographer, in fact we had a very good dialog about the matter. The truth is that pricing photo jobs is a difficult thing to do, even for longtime established pros. This is why it's so crucial for photographers to share their knowledge and experience with each other and why emerging photographers need to educate themselves about how this industry works.

Forums like this are excellent ways for that to happen, and I'm so glad that I see so many active people asking and answering here every week. Keep it up.

However, don't make this your only source of information, also get your hands on books like the ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography or Fotoquote software, both of which can help you fully understand and get you up to speed on all the correct industry terminology, licensing and pricing standards, negotiating tips and other necessary business related info that you need to know in order to build and run a successful career. The nice thing about the ASMP book is that it's only about $20-25 online, which is easy to afford even if you're just starting out.

[nickbedford]

$15,000 :O

I think the problem is that many newer working photographers probably think there's no way they'd make the sale at such a (apparently) high price.

I myself gawk at such pricing only to wonder, "do photo shoots actually sell for that much?!?!"

I guess the other thing is, "do business actually expect to have to pay that much for a certain type of shoot and licensing?"

And another, "how often can a photographer get away with such calculated, yet high pricing?"

[~AJ~]

$15,000?!?! WOW! I can only DREAM of asking that much for a job.......

Another reason photographers just starting out don't want to charg too much is because they know their work isn't up to someone who's charging close to the thousands.....

It is a scary world out there & I'm SO glad that I'm studing at TAFE over the next couple of years, because it at least gives me somewhere to start with my pricing - the teachers there are so helpful as far as all of that goes! And I think it's also something that we cover later on too........

I'd like to do a small business course too, as well as speak to many photographers and see how they come up with their pricing lists.....

[andyw]

Originally Posted by nickbedford

$15,000 :O

I think the problem is that many newer working photographers probably think there's no way they'd make the sale at such a (apparently) high price.

Because they have not properly studied the markets.

Originally Posted by nickbedford

I myself gawk at such pricing only to wonder, "do photo shoots actually sell for that much?!?!"

Why do you "gawk". It is not unusual in the larger corporate world.
It is not just the image they are paying for, it is the whole shebang, from the experience and knowledge and the time etc.

Originally Posted by nickbedford

I guess the other thing is, "do business actually expect to have to pay that much for a certain type of shoot and licensing?"

Absolutely they do. That is what their marketing and advertising budgets are for. Those budgets are in the millions for large companies and many thousands for smaller companies.

Originally Posted by nickbedford

And another, "how often can a photographer get away with such calculated, yet high pricing?"

"get away with"?? what is that supposed to mean.
Photographers who charge those rates are not "getting away" with anything. They are charging the market rate for their product.

[kingpatzer]

Here's the thing -- a job is worth what the client will pay for it, it is not worth what the photographer wants to charge (unless they happen to be the same amount).

Most people starting out in service industries in general under-charge for their efforts. Excuses such as "well I'm just starting so I'm not worth that much yet," really are nothing more than saying "I don't know how to run my business yet." I wonder how many first year photographers who are smart enough to hire an accountant think that an accountant just starting out in the business should give cut rate prices until he proves himself?

That said, there is a market space for photographers who shoot at various price points. They need to come with comparable levels of service and quality as well. There are $200 photographers, $2,000, and $20,000 photographers. They aren't competing and they aren't hurting each other. Louis Vuitton is not going to have someone take a shot of Keith Richards in a hotel room on a TFP deal, and the local school principal isn't going to drop a hundred grand in Anne's lap to have his portrait taken. They are just different market spaces.

People starting out have to be aware what market space they are in, what market space they want to be in, and they have to be aware of the cost of doing business when they price out their work.

If you want a salary of $40k a year, you have a small studio space, insurance, and all the little expenses that go with running a business, equipment repair and replacement, photo supplies, studio supplies, business supplies, website, legal fees, accounting fees, taxes, and so on, you're going to need to bring in around $800 a day to stay in business.


Now, obviously, you can't shoot $800 worth of photos every day if you're charging $300 for a magazine cover. 3 magazine covers a day, every day, is a bit more than can be reasonably expected from anyone.

But it is not unreasonable to expect that you can land 2 or 3 half-day shoots at $800 a pop each week (on average), and that out of those shoots you will license a few images to cover the remainder of the gross income required to stay in business that week. But that is all "on average." A $15,000 license is really just one of those ways averages work out.

[Jim Bryant]

Yup! Gotta study the market prices, know what your TRUE Cost of doing Business and have confidence in your work.

[danbaileyphoto]

What determines the value of photography is the intended exposure of the imagery. A $15,000 job is not out of the question, especially when you consider how much the client is going to pay for ad space in the magazine where they plan to run the ad. If you check out this list, you can get an idea of how much publications charge for ad space.
Magazine & Publication Advertising Costs.

I'm not sure how up to date this list is, but it will at least get you started. (FotoQuote also has a built in magazine database that lists this info.) For example, let's say you are hired by a company to shoot an assignment, and the images that you produce will run as an ad in a single issue of Country Living Magazine. If you look them up, you'll see that Country Living charges $127,000 for a full page four color ad. (Top magazines charge half a million or more for full color ad space.)

As the photographer, you should be generally be charging about 2-5% of this amount in usage rates for this job, which comes out somewhere between $2,500-6,000. Does that mean you'll get it? Maybe not, but this gives you a starting point, and shows you why $350 is WAY too low for a job that might be worth a few thousand dollars. If the client wants to buy spots in multiple issues or different magazines, your photos should cost even more.

Multiple insertions break down this way:

First spot in the mag with the highest circ. = Full price. In this example, let's round to $5,000.

Additional insertions in same or different mags. = 10-15% of initial fee, let's say 15%, which comes to $800.

So, for a photo that will run in an ad in two magazines for six months each, (12 total ads) that's $5,000 + ($800 x 11) = $13,800 + your expenses and fees. And if they want unlimited usage rights, your fee should be anywhere from 2x-10x that amount, especially for exclusive unlimited rights, or a "buyout" as they often like to say.

So, when the client says "we just don't have the money..." they're lying. If they can afford to buy space ad space in a magazine, they have the money, they just don't want to pay you that much if they can get away with it.

If you don't act like a professional and negotiate for it, they WILL get away with it.

[Brian Mullins]

Originally Posted by danbaileyphoto

Recently, another photographer contacted me to ask for pricing advice on a job that he just shot. Although he's just starting out professionally, his work is very good and the job he shot was definitely pro caliber.

He had already billed the job at $350, but he wanted to know I would have charged. So, I plugged in the numbers and usage details, and came up with a figure that was close to $3,000. That was for specified magazine and web use for two years. However, if I were to grant unlimited two year rights, which is what this photographer granted his client, the figure would have been closer to $15,000. Not saying that he what have, or should have gotten exactly that amount, but his starting point should have been much higher.

I don't way this in any way to belittle this particular photographer, in fact we had a very good dialog about the matter. The truth is that pricing photo jobs is a difficult thing to do, even for longtime established pros. This is why it's so crucial for photographers to share their knowledge and experience with each other and why emerging photographers need to educate themselves about how this industry works.

Forums like this are excellent ways for that to happen, and I'm so glad that I see so many active people asking and answering here every week. Keep it up.

However, don't make this your only source of information, also get your hands on books like the ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography or Fotoquote software, both of which can help you fully understand and get you up to speed on all the correct industry terminology, licensing and pricing standards, negotiating tips and other necessary business related info that you need to know in order to build and run a successful career. The nice thing about the ASMP book is that it's only about $20-25 online, which is easy to afford even if you're just starting out.

While I am not gay (not that there is anything wrong with that), I want to give you a big fat kiss! Thank you for sharing this!

[MattG]

From the other side of the coin, I have signed off on photo shoots for corporate work in the past. An example I remember is that about 10 years ago we paid $10,000 for unlimited usage for shots of 4 models (3 amateur, one pro) and a butterfly. The results were excellent and the price included the photographer and assistant, stylist and studio hire with lighting and props. The shoot time was about 6 hours. The images subsequently appeared in smaller magazine ads (cost of Full page about $5,000 per issue if I remember correctly), marketing literature and an issue of the British Airways flight magazine over the next 2 years.

If I could have gotten this for $350, then I would think they really didn't value their product. The difference here is that in selling to the commercial world, the understanding is that the product will be expected to yield results, either in brand recognition or in sales revenue. Selling to a private client does not yield the same benefit to that party therefore the value these customers place on the product is lower. Whether anyone else likes the image is immaterial as the only people that needs to be satisfied is the individual/couple/family buying. As such, the overwhelming advice on these boards is to restrict the image usage.

Hopefully Dan's story shows why - your work may well be worth thousands, you're just discounting based upon restricting the end users usage rights and not on your ability/results. It's easier to envisage a higher charge to commercial companies with this in mind as the value of your product is worth more.

[lonni]

MattG makes some great points. I too have had the luxury of seeing both sides of the photography busienss as a customer and photographer.

If you dont value your work, no one else will, but you have to work with the market, and the customers budgets, and compete with others. Pricing is tricky but like most things if you stick to your guns, people will pay.

On a side note i was a little surprised people think $15,000 is a lot for a job.