Small town, saturated market, everyone is offering CDs, ugh

[carrieevans]

xposurepro: good thoughts and thanks for sharing. Definitely some things to think about when I restructure my pricing for next year.

However, I have to say, as I have avoided forums for so long, this is why. I guess I feel that if I do offer a CD of whatever kind that there will always be the "elite" out there who will look down on me for it. I understand that a high end studio professional such as yourself would not want to give out a cd. But a lifestyle photographer who takes a session that tells more of a story is going to price their products differently I'm sure.

Not everyone is about the prints these days. To me it seems like what you are saying feeds this mentality that photographers are this elite group of business owners that want to make it as hard as possible to get nice images to the everyday person.

I don't think what I'm doing is undercutting my business at all, but what do I know?

I recently read a great blog post about this very subject. I'm sure you've seen it, but maybe other people stalking this thread have not. zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias Cheap Photographers Only Kill Themselves, Not The Industry.

We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

[bgmike]

Originally Posted by Xposurepro

The people who do it never make a real living from it

I actually know a lot of photographers that make 6 figures doing nothing but e-sessions and cd's. Fact is, most people will pay for the "photographer" more than the print. Selling yourself as a great photographer to your clients is more important than if you sell them prints or cd's. I will admit that selling a $5,000 dollar wedding package that includes engagements, bridals and wedding day is easier than selling a $1,500 portrait session with a cd as the final product. But you said it yourself that there are plenty of people still willing to pay top dollar for a great photographer. The main goal is to become a great photographer and the rest will fall into place assuming you have any business sense at all.

CD's vs. prints....who cares. Just be confident in yourself and what you are worth for the time you spend doing it.

BTW, just got introduced to this forum and am glad to see so many great things here.

Mike

[Ensleygirl]

Originally Posted by Xposurepro

As for the fuss over CDs ... I have never heard of a photographer yet who hands over CDs and makes even a fraction of the income they should be making as a photographer. Especially when they get real crazy and offer them out for $200 session included. I'm just thinking holy crap they should be asking around that just to show up and take the camera out of the bag. LOL
When you reduce the business end of the artform into simply handing over a CD which the client can reprint at Wal-Mart you are trashing the perception of professionalism. Your client now sees you around the same level as they do their friends who they say " ... likes to take pics". On a business level you want to be perceived much higher than that. You want clients to see you as a "professional portrait artist" not simply "somebody who likes to take pics." Going the whole "we offer affordable CDs" route is one of the worst things you can do when it comes to your business. The people who do it never make a real living from it and would crap their pants the first time a non-wedding non-commercial client walked in and dropped a couple grand on prints.

You hit the nail on the head. If someone is spending 2-3 hours on a shoot (including driving time) then 4-5 hours on pp, and charging $200 for everything including a CD, they are making on average $28/hr. That might sound like pretty good money, but then you have to factor in their marketing, equipment, the time they spend preparing their websites and galleries, etc. It just doesn't make sense to do it. Added to that, there is about a zero chance the photog will ever see another dollar from that shoot because those clients are not going to order prints from them. They are going to take that CD straight to Wal-mart and have cheapo prints made.

Like I said before, my goal is to give my clients beautiful prints to display in their homes. I have made my peace with not offering high-res CDs. I think what's happening is that a lot of the "competition" in my area seems really busy right now because they are all so inexpensive. I am busy enough, but not as busy. I am taking my time starting my business and sincerely hope to still be around in 5 years. I have gotten some good marketing strategies together in the last week or so, and I'm going to take it to another level.

An interesting thing happened last week. Two of my friends who are trying their hand at photography and do the flat rate $200 deal for the session and CD told me they wished they had the guts to not sell the CDs so they could make more money.

I really appreciate everyone's advice.

[naeno]

Out of curosity, does anyone offer a CD on a sliding scale? Meaning..."if you want 5 digital files, you will pay X. If you want 10 files, you pay Y". If so, what do you charge?

I've never handed out full res CDs before, but I have a client who's fairly adament about wanting full res. She is planning on purchasing prints and a book from me, but still wants digital files. I'm not utterly opposed, but neither do I want to give them away free (or severly underpriced).

[Jim Poor]

Originally Posted by naeno

Out of curosity, does anyone offer a CD on a sliding scale? Meaning..."if you want 5 digital files, you will pay X. If you want 10 files, you pay Y". If so, what do you charge?

I've never handed out full res CDs before, but I have a client who's fairly adament about wanting full res. She is planning on purchasing prints and a book from me, but still wants digital files. I'm not utterly opposed, but neither do I want to give them away free (or severly underpriced).

I do this for my dog sports clients.

For my portraiture clients, the files are at a fixed price, but I will consider a discount for large REALLY large purchases on an individual basis.

A good starting point, for me at least, for digital files is twice the cost of the largest print your average customer buys. Keep in mind this is portrait work and only grants personal use rights.

[danbaileyphoto]

bgmike hit it right on the head. These days, one of the best ways to find success is to make your business about you and your brand, as much, if not more than your imagery. You need to market yourself so that people want to hire YOU, not just because you're just another photographer who can do the job, but because of the special talents and charisma that you bring to your business.

This is where word of mouth really helps out. Create an attractive brand (you) and people will refer you.

Check out Dane Sanders's book, Fast Track Photographer. It focuses on this element of building a successful photography business in this day and age.

[rohndasue]

Well, Here are my thoughts... being one of those photographers who charge a very cheap rate (much less than $200) and then give out the disk of photos.... I am not a "professional"... I still have a lot to learn, but I think my work is good and getting better all the time. I love pictures! Taking them, sharing them, looking at them.... And in this economy there are lots of folks who just aren't going to pay professional prices. They can't. I can't. We have lost just about everything and starting over with nothing is hard. There are a lot of people in that boat. So I love that I get to provide them with something that they could not afford any other way. I give the disclaimer that I am still learning. I offer refferals to a really great photographer in our area if they want something better. I also have a passion to do photos of families with special-needs kids. I too am a homeschooler, I work part time and I have a son with autism.... So photography is something I love that I get to do on the side and make a little extra cash. I have people who come to me who I know have been clients of a professional in the past, I refer them back to her, but the story is always the same. Husband got a pay cut, or got layed off, and she raised her prices. There is just no way that we can afford it. So is it wrong of me to take the business?
Just trying to show it from a different point of view.

[Ensleygirl]

Originally Posted by rohndasue

Well, Here are my thoughts... being one of those photographers who charge a very cheap rate (much less than $200) and then give out the disk of photos.... I am not a "professional"... I still have a lot to learn, but I think my work is good and getting better all the time. I love pictures! Taking them, sharing them, looking at them.... And in this economy there are lots of folks who just aren't going to pay professional prices. They can't. I can't. We have lost just about everything and starting over with nothing is hard. There are a lot of people in that boat. So I love that I get to provide them with something that they could not afford any other way. I give the disclaimer that I am still learning. I offer refferals to a really great photographer in our area if they want something better. I also have a passion to do photos of families with special-needs kids. I too am a homeschooler, I work part time and I have a son with autism.... So photography is something I love that I get to do on the side and make a little extra cash. I have people who come to me who I know have been clients of a professional in the past, I refer them back to her, but the story is always the same. Husband got a pay cut, or got layed off, and she raised her prices. There is just no way that we can afford it. So is it wrong of me to take the business?
Just trying to show it from a different point of view.

Sorry, I've been busy and haven't gotten back to this thread in a while.

I can't answer your question. Like I said, I have a peace about my business decisions now. If you feel peace with yours, good for you. It all depends on what you want to be doing with photography in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years.

[theosus]

Originally Posted by carrieevans

xposurepro: good thoughts and thanks for sharing. Definitely some things to think about when I restructure my pricing for next year.

However, I have to say, as I have avoided forums for so long, this is why. I guess I feel that if I do offer a CD of whatever kind that there will always be the "elite" out there who will look down on me for it. I understand that a high end studio professional such as yourself would not want to give out a cd. But a lifestyle photographer who takes a session that tells more of a story is going to price their products differently I'm sure.

Not everyone is about the prints these days. To me it seems like what you are saying feeds this mentality that photographers are this elite group of business owners that want to make it as hard as possible to get nice images to the everyday person.
We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

Im almost glad Im not in your boat. I have mixed feelings on this - as a photographer (amateur, noob, novice, whatever) if I were getting paid to do shoots I don't think I would want to give out inexpensive CDs, for one reason - why are they going to come back when they can just print them out?
As a consumer, however - I feel I should have some limited rights to the pictures. Not your RAW files, of course, maybe not even high res, but something more than just "here's your packet of pictures - if you want something else you have to come back"
I think you have to walk a fine line and price it for your area. If everyone is offering CDs, maybe you almost have to - however the CDs might come with caveats. "Yes - you get a CD, but they are low-res watermarked pictures. I'll keep the high res ones on file, if you decide you want picture 316a in the future, just come back and I'll print a really nice one for you.

But - if someone really wants a digital copy of your print they will get it. I have a scanner on my desk right now. I could slap on any old picture, scan it and have it printed somewhere. Or, they might just want the picture for their facebook page, or to email grandma who's 1000 miles away. And is anything wrong with that? Should I have to buy a $1000 cd of my portraits just to send a low-res pic to family members? I don't think so...
And so what if grandma takes that email, prints out the picture and puts it on her wall? Have you, as a photographer, really lost anything? Would grandma have ever come to you and bought that 4x6? No....


I feel your pain either way. Good luck, and don't let people get you down. As long as you feel like you arent being taken advantage of, and your prices and services are reasonable for your area, I think you'll do fine. But - if you are going to limit services (no CDs) and charge more - you have to be better than others. A lot better, and plan to lose customers to the cheaper guys. Porsche and BMW are great cars, but ford sells a lot more.

[private]

Originally Posted by Jim Bryant

I really hate to say this, but unfortunately in this day and age people would rather super size their fast food meals, purchase cigarettes and cheap beer instead of purchasing quality photography. To them, the cheaper the better.

Naaaah, not true - People want to see value - and its up to every photographer to make the cliemt see that - and if they don't or won't - they will fail and pass the blame.

For example, people in my area will pay MORE for someone who is a member of PPA, who went to school for it, who is a contest winner - and the only way they know that is known, respected is if the photographer tells them and markets that fact. I know their competition won't say it - LOL