Time is money!

[candidrachel]

The above article wasn't written by Jim it was written by Marianne Drenthe. Jim cut and pasted it on here for some more information.

Yes a Spade is a Spade which is why I WON'T get into a debate but suffice to say that the underying reason for the original post being posted was to highlight that SOME photographers don't take into account all the edititing, burning cd, driving and hours spent doing other ad hoc duties when working out their price and short change themselves.

One size doesn't fit all but take what you want out of the article.

Some folks like value for money and don't want to feel ripped off whereby others want quality and prices that reflect that. Horses for Courses!

Originally Posted by BCampbell

Oh come on, let's call a spade a spade.

Jim is trying to tell everyone how they should be running their own shows. Now, this isn't to say that his advice is not, on the whole, good. And I think it's great that he jumps so quick when people ask for advice. But now he's moved on to an unsolicited, one-size-fits-all approach here. And that just doesn't work.

He is part of the "old guard" and if you read a cross-section of his posts -- specially when he has an "off day" -- you'll quickly see that he can be angry, bitter, and scared of the changes happening to the industry right now. Which he has every right to be.

But to not see this post by him as an attempt to get everyone into lock-step with his idea of How Things Should Be Done -- for his own benefit ("you're hurting other photographers") -- is shortsighted.

I don't really think he is trying to make everyone be just like him. That's what you want him to be saying because you are letting your personal opinions of him get in the way.

I work in an industry that every minute I have is important.

I bill for my time, i bill for report writing, I bill for consultations, I bill for the fact that my jobs requires a gym membership, I bill for a lot of things people DON'T see.

So, why then am I worth $140/hr? The degrees? The thousands of dollars in school debt? The countless hours of study and research? The thousands of hours of unpaid training?

It's the myriad of 1,000's of little things the end person doesn't see.

The point you seem to be missing here is that there are a bunch of things that aren't factored into making a photo. The end user ONLY sees you point the camera and press a button, so to them it seems "easy". They don't see the countless hours on other junk.

That's the SPADE here you seem to be failing to grasp.

~Eric

[Jim Bryant]

Originally Posted by candidrachel

The above article wasn't written by Jim it was written by Marianne Drenthe. Jim cut and pasted it on here for some more information.

Yes a Spade is a Spade which is why I WON'T get into a debate but suffice to say that the underying reason for the original post being posted was to highlight that SOME photographers don't take into account all the edititing, burning cd, driving and hours spent doing other ad hoc duties when working out their price and short change themselves.

One size doesn't fit all but take what you want out of the article.

Some folks like value for money and don't want to feel ripped off whereby others want quality and prices that reflect that. Horses for Courses!

ON MY GOD! There's someone else here who can read and think at the same time.
THANK YOU!

[candidrachel]

You know why that is Jim? Its called muti-tasking!! Women are sooooo much better than men at that

[Jim Bryant]

All I know that there are many ways of running a photography business that we Jims were taught. whether it's old fashioned, behind the times or what ever you want to call it. It might not be the best method you might want to take. But still the business methods and practices, no matter how old guard one might think, are still the same principles and formulars, how outdated, are still taught by other pros and professional organizations. But all that really matters is how you run your business, right? I've been in business for over three decades and know what? I'm still in business where other former photographers I know are out selling life insurance. Think about that one.

[Jim Bryant]

Originally Posted by candidrachel

You know why that is Jim? Its called muti-tasking!! Women are sooooo much better than men at that

I'm a multitasking mother f..ker too. That's why I can write proposals, give advice on DPS, edit, pping, burn DVD's, give advice on DPS, answer emails and update contracts, give advice on DPS and still manage to piss people off. Some are just too damn stubborn and apparently know it all. Whoops I guess I fit in that category as well.

[sk66]

Originally Posted by Dennismc

I dont understand this one. Are you saying that he should take a crappier picture for the yugo one then the mid to high end one?

The picture is the picture, I can see less editing in post coming into play, not as much layout, settings, simple background, no choice, (aids in faster less PP) That is where the difference I think should come in.

Using a car analogy still, a yugo, a Toyota and a benz still have four wheels and move forward and back, the price difference comes from the extras, be it design, safety (in the yugo you couldnt even get that as an option), craftsmanship of the finished product.

In photography, its all the other extras, prints included, planning, better settings, locations, more detailed PP, maybe skin toning, highlighting etc. That sets it apart from the lower tiers.

Also Like jim said, its still sales, and even though it might be a Yugo client now, that doesnt mean it will also be a yugo client.

I agree the picture is the picture, and it's your job to make it the best. It IS the extras that make the difference....and that's where the problem lies.

If there is no difference in the product being delivered and the time/effort behind it, but the pricing IS different. Then either you are screwing those with the money to afford it, or you are underselling your product to those who can't. It's generally a case of underselling.

If you want to do that in hopes of expanding your market etc, that's fine. It's NOT fine to do so without understanding what you are really doing. (Let one of your high dollar clients find out they are one of the very few paying so much "for the same thing" as you sell to others at a much lower cost...bye bye...quite possibly to that entire market.)

One of the biggest mistakes is to think you are making decent money when you really are not.... It's like the working mother who spends 40hrs a week away from home at her job and 99% of her income REALLY pays for clothing, travel, daycare, easy prep meals etc. Even things like the increase in auto insurance due to additional miles, extra makeup usage and hair care, lunches, vending machine snacks etc etc all play in...The net result is nearly zero dollars and much strain on the family.

In photography the net result can easily be nearly zero dollars (hourly) and much strain on the family.... Better off working at McDonalds....

[Dennismc]

Originally Posted by sk66

I agree the picture is the picture, and it's your job to make it the best. It IS the extras that make the difference....and that's where the problem lies.

If there is no difference in the product being delivered and the time/effort behind it, but the pricing IS different. Then either you are screwing those with the money to afford it, or you are underselling your product to those who can't. It's generally a case of underselling.

If you want to do that in hopes of expanding your market etc, that's fine. It's NOT fine to do so without understanding what you are really doing. (Let one of your high dollar clients find out they are one of the very few paying so much "for the same thing" as you sell to others at a much lower cost...bye bye...quite possibly to that entire market.)

One of the biggest mistakes is to think you are making decent money when you really are not.... It's like the working mother who spends 40hrs a week away from home at her job and 99% of her income REALLY pays for clothing, travel, daycare, easy prep meals etc. Even things like the increase in auto insurance due to additional miles, extra makeup usage and hair care, lunches, vending machine snacks etc etc all play in...The net result is nearly zero dollars and much strain on the family.

In photography the net result can easily be nearly zero dollars (hourly) and much strain on the family.... Better off working at McDonalds....

Agree, we have said pretty much the same thing, but with the execption that the high dollar client gets more of the "extras" be it extra time in editing, the extra touch in post, the extra time spent, (which means more pictures taken, which leads to a better pool of which to draw the best from) So they get a higher level of product, the lower end still get a great photo, but maybe there was no skin toning done to it, so its more SOOC, or the poses are not what a lot of others would say are the best, limited time to shoot means smaller pool to draw from.

In my field for an example, a basic system for two different client , will work the same everything i build it. BUT the base 1500 system costs just that, its you pick it up and leave with it. The same machine now to a higher client, I deliver it, setup up, configure on the network, install vpn etc... Now costs 2500.00. The extra they pay is for the added time and benefit of complete package.

Jim's point is right on, there is more time that most dont see. New people in any business almost always fail to take into account these little things and when only doing a few at a time it isnt really much of an issue, but if they start doing a shoot aday, or every other day, etc, then they will quickly add up and they will be losing out. Hopefully then they see the error and adjust or they will fail, self correcting market.

[dblightsey]

hey heres a question for ya. What if I can go out and take good pics without post processing at all. Ive studied and practiced and now I can just shoot, send to the lab and print. (I cant, Im saying though that some ppl can). Maybe 100 an hr is almost all profit because i dont need hrs to PP etc?

I think the best photogs are making way more because they dont need a lot of PP at all.(thats a lot of that time yall are worried about right there) If you are spending so much time in PP then maybe you need to refine you work. I KNOW I need to. My goal is to not have to "use a lil paint to make it what it aint". I have a LONG ways to go. I had to shoot film when I did action photos years ago, we have it easier in digital because we can correct so much afterward.

Are there any of you out there that use just minimum PP ?

[Jim Bryant]

Originally Posted by dblightsey

hey heres a question for ya. What if I can go out and take good pics without post processing at all. Ive studied and practiced and now I can just shoot, send to the lab and print. (I cant, Im saying though that some ppl can). Maybe 100 an hr is almost all profit because i dont need hrs to PP etc?

I think the best photogs are making way more because they dont need a lot of PP at all.(thats a lot of that time yall are worried about right there) If you are spending so much time in PP then maybe you need to refine you work. I KNOW I need to. My goal is to not have to "use a lil paint to make it what it aint". I have a LONG ways to go. I had to shoot film when I did action photos years ago, we have it easier in digital because we can correct so much afterward.

Are there any of you out there that use just minimum PP ?

The best photogs always post process. True, I don't do as much as maybe someone else, but it's still time spent behind the computer screen. The only time I spend a lot of time on the computer is when someone wants a custom print. Then do all the work in adjustment layers. But still you have to do some pping to the image, if not curves, color balance and saturation. Images still need to be worked on no matter how good a photographer thinks they are.