For those who may intend to buy a lens from bhphotovideo.com

[Fotograftalebesi]

I want to share my experience with BH:


-----Original Message-----
From: snn@ttmail.com
Sent: Sep 21, 2009 2:34:43 PM
Subject: Combine Cancel Change Order

Customer's Name: sinan yagci

Customer's Phone Number:

Order/Confirmation Number: 270085390

To whom it may concern ;

I am your usual customer from Turkey Istanbul.. I generally make my purchases trough a friend of mine who lives in USA
Named Aykut T. .. I chose the products and send him the BH links so he buys and brings them to me when he flys back to Turkey.. When I make my choises I depend on the information you display fort he products ..
Usually I do not face any problem with that but I had a problem on my last purchase ( see product link below )

Canon | EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens | 9517A002BA
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras Zoom Super Wide Angle USA 449.95 $
The main reason that I chose this product was it was made in japan .. On the Picture this information is clearly seen Here is the link :
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras
BUT the product I have received was unfortunatelly MADE IN TAIWAN .. I do not prefer to use products made in China,Taiwan or Malesia especially for Lenses I purchase ..
On the same product page the same product had white box option which I didnt prefer fort he same reason
I would like you to change the Taiwan made product I have purchased with the Made in JAPAN one ....
All necessary purchase informaiton is listed below
Order No : 270085390
Reference No : 1011344193
Invoice Date : 08.24.09
Customer Code : ………
Order Date : 08.24.09
Sales Person : WB
Ship Via : UPS 2 Day Air
Item Description : Canon 17-85 mm F/4-5.6 IS EF-S (USM) Lens
SKU : CA17854IS/USA
Item Price : 559.95

I will appreciate if you could let me know the steps I should take for this change ..

Best regards
Sinan YAGCI
Istanbul , Türkiye
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----- Original Message -----
From: B&H Customer Service Department
To: snn@ttmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:11 AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: Combine Cancel Change Order (#6969-146808880-5361)


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Hello , my name is Sol K:

Thank you for contacting the Customer Service Department at B&H Photo Video and Pro Audio.
The pictures are for illustrative purposes only. There is no way to say that the other ones will be any different.
Please let us know if there is anything else we can assist you with.

Thank you, we appreciate your business.

Sol K
B&H Photo Video and Pro Audio
The Professional's Source.
E-Mail Customer Service Department
B&H Photo Video | Digital Cameras, Camcorders




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Dear Sol ;
Thank you for your prompt reply ; but this doent solve my problem at all ..
On your email you clearly indicate that "The pictures are for illustrative purposes only" but from the links below you can see two different product photos with different origin and price ..one is made in japan amd the other is made in Malesia and the one with a note (white box )
Please check the links and you will see clearly from the photos it is shown whether it is Made in Japan or Made in Malesia and you can also clearly see that the prices are diferent
I find this situation quite deceptive and I would like you or any other person in BH who is autorized to solve this situation..
Please forward me to another department or person if you are not authorized to solve this situation
Best regards
Sinan Yagci sinanyagci@hotmail.com

LINKS :
PRODUCT 1 Made in japan
Canon | EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens | 0345B002 | B&H Photo
front view
Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens
Made in Malesia
Canon | 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM Autofocus Lens | 6472A002
Canon 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM Autofocus Lens
PRODUCT 2
Canon | EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens | 9517A002BA
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras Zoom Super Wide Angle USA 449.95 $
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras
Canon | EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens | 9517A002BA
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras (White Box) 419 $
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras (White Box)

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FW: product change request‏
From: Henry Posner (henryp@bhphoto.com)

Sent: Fri 9/25/09 5:41 PM
To: sinanyagci@hotmail.com (sinanyagci@hotmail.com)
First, we regret your disappointment and confusion. When we said our images are for illustrative purposes, we meant it. Likewise, when we say, "Prices, specifications, and images are subject to change without notice. Not responsible for typographical or illustrative errors," we mean that too.

Manufacturers are free to change any item's country of manufacture at their whim and they are under little if any obligation to announce such changes or share them with retailers. I also notice you're comparing US-warranted and "grey market" and "white box" products. While I cannot say this is an "apples to oranges" comparison, it is certainly a "Jonathan to Winesap" comparison and the inferences you draw are therefore flawed.

Periodically customers ask us where an item is made, or a customer might specify, "I only want the made-in _____ item, not the same item made elsewhere." Customers should know that our phone, e-mail and fax department staffers do not have access to merchandise in our warehouses and do not have information on where an item was manufactured or assembled. In our opinion, such concerns are misdirected in any case. A camera manufactured or assembled in a company-owned, company-operated and company-supervised factory which is located in a country other than that where the company is headquartered is identical to a camera (or any item we sell) manufactured in the same country as the company's headquarters. In most cases, companies move manufacturing or assembly facilities out of their home countries to save money, savings passed down the chain to the consumer in the form of more affordable cameras with more sophisticated features at lower prices. We have discerned no difference in cameras manufactured or assembled in (for instance) Korea or Thailand than in identical models assembled or manufactured in (for instance) Japan.

I recall when Honda Motors began assembling the popular Accord in plants in the United States. Some shoppers insisted on the made-in-Japan model, under the misimpression that the same car, assembled in the USA, couldn't possibly meet the Japanese standards for quality. Aside from the aspersions this cast on the American worker's ability to produce a quality product, a popular consumer magazine tested samples of both and reported no discernable difference. They advised that American made Accords equaled Japanese-made models in every particular and that both continued to outperform American competitors from Ford and GM. So it is with modern camera and video equipment.

In the February, 2000 issue, Popular Photography's the late and venerated Herbert Keppler wrote, "...the Japanese have maintained near-fanatical tight control over their 'offshore' production facilities and it's worked." He further wrote, "Having visited many Japanese factories ...as well as off-shore plants, I can report that quality is uniform no matter where the products are made." The last words? Buy the brand and model that suits your priorities, that fits your budget, that includes the features you need or want and leave the choice of where it's been put together to the people you've already decided to trust -- the designers and managers of the company producing the model you're after. Then go out and enjoy using it."

Finally, you wrote, "I find this situation quite deceptive." It is not deceptive.
-- -
regards,
Henry Posner
Director of Corporate Communications
B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
B&H Photo Video | Digital Cameras, Camcorders

[Fotograftalebesi]

Dear Mr. Posner ,
The points that you try to put forward in your mail do not help solve my problem. I am a man who is rather bound to make his shopping wia internet. And when I decide to purchase some item on-line , there are two most important things that I depend upon : The detailed specifications and the photos of that item. When any of the two misleads me , I consider this selling as deceptive. I have 3 points to support my argument.

1 Canon | EOS Rebel T1i Digital SLR Camera (Camera Body)
Please notice the statement right under the photo on this link. It says : “ Lens not included. “ Here you are saying that “ Dear customer , you are seeing a lens mounted on the camera in this photo but it is not included in the price.”
Mr. Posner , if things work out in the manner that you defend in your mail why would you need to put such a notice here ? ( Moreover it also says “ only body “ on the header. ) You could have easily said that “ everybody who is interested in SLR cameras knows that lenses are sould as different items and we are not responsible for illustrative errors or misunderstandings.

2 If your images were only meant for illustrative purposes and nothing more you wouldn’t edit this image and cover the “ made ın Japan “ writing after my complaint :
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras

3 Used Sanyo | Xacti VPC-CG9BK Flash Memory Camcorder | VPC-CG9BK
The product shown on this link is a second-hand item and here you clearly indicate that this image is for illustrative purposes only. This naturally leads me to think that when I don’t see this indication elsewhere I should get exactly what I see in the photos. And that is what I experienced in all of my early purchases from BH , 3 of which were the same lens that have bee purchased on 3 different occasions and each one of them were made in Japan. I am now having trouble with my 4.th purchase of the same lens.

Dear Mr. Posner , I would like to ask one final question : If a customer cams to your store in New York , checks some models and decides to buy a certain lens , could you give him another lens at the payment point ?
Mr. Posner , you can find me as a man with a one-track mind but I am just old-school when it comes to trade. Putting apart all my rights and your liabilities , I should state that one good reason that have made myself your loyal customer so far has been the trust and positive perception that I have felt about Jewish business people. I should also add that this is a common perception about their way of making business in my country. I regret to see “ New World Order “ causing corruption everywhere.

Best Regards
Sinan YAGCI


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From: henryp@bhphoto.com
To: sinanyagci@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:37:32 -0400
Subject: RE: product change request
The points that you try to put forward in your mail do not help solve my problem. I am a man who is rather bound to make his shopping wia internet. And when I decide to purchase some item on-line , there are two most important things that I depend upon : The detailed specifications and the photos of that item. When any of the two misleads me , I consider this selling as deceptive. I have 3 points to support my argument.

1 Canon | EOS Rebel T1i Digital SLR Camera (Camera Body)
Please notice the statement right under the photo on this link. It says : “ Lens not included. “ Here you are saying that “ Dear customer , you are seeing a lens mounted on the camera in this photo but it is not included in the price.”
There is nothing deceptive about our "lens not included" notice. It is akin to an advertisement for a suit with the disclaimer that the shirt and tie the model is wearing are not included. It is a standard industry practice and specifically designed to reduce deception. Likewise a car advertisement might say, "prices starting at 25,000.00; as shown, 36,000.00," because the model in the ad photo is the supercharged ultra high end leather-clad "EX" model, but the company also sells a lower priced "DX" model with manual windows, no power door locks and a sadly underpowered 4-cylinder engine.
2 If your images were only meant for illustrative purposes and nothing more you wouldn’t edit this image and cover the “ made ın Japan “ writing after my complaint :
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for Select Digital SLR Cameras
OF COURSE WE WOULD! You were kind enough to help us identify a place on our site where a newer photo would more accurately reflect the item being sold. We strive for accuracy and certainly update product images whenever it's appropriate to do so.
3 Used Sanyo | Xacti VPC-CG9BK Flash Memory Camcorder | VPC-CG9BK
The product shown on this link is a second-hand item and here you clearly indicate that this image is for illustrative purposes only. This naturally leads me to think that when I don’t see this indication elsewhere I should get exactly what I see in the photos. And that is what I experienced in all of my early purchases from BH , 3 of which were the same lens that have bee purchased on 3 different occasions and each one of them were made in Japan. I am now having trouble with my 4.th purchase of the same lens.
The item shown in the URL you selected certainly is a used product. We say so quite clearly and plainly. Just as our site advises that this particular image for this particular used item "is for illustrative purpose only," our site also includes a more generally applicable advisory, which says, "Prices, specifications, and images are subject to change without notice. Not responsible for typographical or illustrative errors."

The "trouble" you're having is because Canon elected to relocate a manufacturing or assembly plant in an effort to provide you with the same quality product at the most competitive price possible.
I would like to ask one final question : If a customer cams to your store in New York , checks some models and decides to buy a certain lens , could you give him another lens at the payment point ?
I am not 100% certain I understand your question, but if I do, then the answer is that if you and a sales associate open and inspect a brand new lens from a box he summoned for you from our warehouse and you indicate to him you want to purchase that lens, he returns the lens to the box and that's the lens you receive. That said, we do have an extensive array of display lenses and if you inspect one of those, that's not the lens you will leave the store with as we don't sell display products. When a customer pays for a new item, he or she receives a new item, not a much-handled display.
Mr. Posner , you can find me as a man with a one-track mind
Respectfully, that's simply ridiculous.
I am just old-school when it comes to trade. Putting apart all my rights and your liabilities , I should state that one good reason that have made myself your loyal customer so far has been the trust and positive perception that I have felt about Jewish business people. I should also add that this is a common perception about their way of making business in my country. I regret to see “ New World Order “ causing corruption everywhere.
I am disappointed to read this thinly veiled regrettable bit of hostility. I hope you are immediately moved to apologize.

-- -
regards,
Henry Posner
Director of Corporate Communications
B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
B&H Photo Video | Digital Cameras, Camcorders
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[Fotograftalebesi]

From: sinan yagci [mailto:sinanyagci@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:26 am
To: Henry Posner
Subject: RE: product change request
Dear Mr. Posner,

After all your mails, my conclusion is that: BH is not a trustworthy firm cause you are refusing to understand me giving me irrelevant examples:
“I recall when Honda Motors began assembling the popular Accord in plants in the United States. Some shoppers insisted on the made-in-Japan model, under the misimpression that the same car, assembled in the USA, couldn't possibly meet the Japanese standards for quality. Aside from the aspersions this cast on the American worker's ability to produce a quality product, a popular consumer magazine tested samples of both and reported no discernable difference. They advised that American made Accords equaled Japanese-made models in every particular and that both continued to outperform American competitors from Ford and GM.”
“Likewise a car advertisement might say, "prices starting at 25,000.00; as shown, 36,000.00," because the model in the ad photo is the supercharged ultra high end leather-clad "EX" model, but the company also sells a lower priced "DX" model with manual windows, no power door locks and a sadly underpowered 4-cylinder engine.”
These two cases that you have written about in your two mails lead me to think that you might be someone who has lost his job in late GM? I have to state that if you keep on with your current understanding of customer relations your BH’s fate will be no different than GM’s.
Finally I want to let you know that I will do my best to save others not to experience same problems that I have faced with your company. Accordingly I will be posting all our exchange of mails with you and your other departments on different forums about photography and lenses. In more familiar words for you: “It’s time for a higher gear!”
Best Regards
Sinan YAĞCI


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RE: product change request‏
From: Henry Posner (henryp@bhphoto.com)
Sent: Fri 10/23/09 2:58 PM
To: sinan yagci (sinanyagci@hotmail.com)

You'll be relieved to know I have never worked for GM or for the auto industry in any aspect.
I'll be happy to hear from you when you've begun posting in different forums and I hope you'll let me know which forums so I can enjoy the dialogue.

-- -
regards,
Henry Posner
Director of Corporate Communications
B&H Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio
B&H Photo Video | Digital Cameras, Camcorders

[zona5101]

I am awefully impressed at how much time & effort B&H took to reply. That says a lot about them as a company as most would have stopped responding to your drivel after the first exchange. I am happy to spend my money with B&H.

PS: The only thing you expose by posting the exchange between you and B&H is how well you got schooled.

[jdepould]

Is this a joke?

It's a cheap kit lens, it's not going to be made in Japan.

[OsmosisStudios]

Originally Posted by jdepould

Is this a joke?

It's a cheap kit lens, it's not going to be made in Japan.

Regardless: factories in Japan, China, Taiwan or MARS are all going to have the same quality control specifications. That's Canon.

Your requests are beyond ridiculous.

I'd also be curious to see what the legal issues are about buying lenses in the states for the sole purpose of transporting them out of country.

[Mr Guy]

Maybe I'm just slow this morning because it took me a little bit to figure out what you are actually complaining about. Am I correct in reading that you are not unhappy about the product, or the price, the condition it arrived in, it's performance, or any material problems, but are in fact annoyed because a lens that used to be made in Japan no longer is?

When I first read it, I thought you tried to buy a US Market lens and instead received a grey-market lens, and understood your annoyance. However, on rereading, I no longer believe that to be the case. You're simply annoyed by something completely out of BH Photovideo's control simply because they used an out of date or older photo. While I do believe a store has some responsibility to educate, point of origin if not stated explicitly, is generally not considered to be a divisive factor for most products. It may be inconvenient for you, but their obligation to provide the product specified was met, and they have a generous return policy.

Incidentally, call it a cultural mistake, but I'd have been absolutely shocked if the, "Well, you're a jew so you're obligated to work harder to make me happy" tactic had worked.

Test the lens you received thoroughly and return it if it's flawed in anyway. I'm sure you'll find BHPhotovideo to be very receptive to actual problems with the lens, but I understand their reluctance to care about your personal Asian biases.

*Edit* I was looking for a "report this thread" to moderators but I'm not seeing one. You really ought to obscure/remove your email address from this thread if you don't want a buttload of spam from bots crawling the website.

[i speak in math]

Originally Posted by zona5101

I am awefully impressed at how much time & effort B&H took to reply. That says a lot about them as a company as most would have stopped responding to your drivel after the first exchange. I am happy to spend my money with B&H.

PS: The only thing you expose by posting the exchange between you and B&H is how well you got schooled.

Agreed. If I could afford anything new, B&H is one of the places I look for my gear. Like Adorama, KEH and MPEX, their customer service is second to none and am pleased to do business with them.

[dakwegmo]

@Fotograftalebesi if this was intended to make B&H look bad, I think your plan may have backfired.

[jdepould]

Originally Posted by Mr Guy

Incidentally, call it a cultural mistake, but I'd have been absolutely shocked if the, "Well, you're a jew so you're obligated to work harder to make me happy" tactic had worked.

I missed that bit. Wow.