600D vs 60D for Speed + Autofocus

[Mimsy]

Hi there,

My first dSLR.
My first post on DPS.
Lots of firsts this week.

I have just bought a 600D. I spent quite a bit of time (well, all my free time for about a week) researching dSLRs. I settled on the 600D as it seemed to suit my needs pretty well, and for the price, it seemed like a pretty fantastic camera.

I brought it home 4 days ago and have been loving it. I have been very impressed by the images I have captured and I am looking forward to learning more.

Today I took it out to the park and tried it in sports mode and took a bunch of continues shoot images. I got some great shots of gorgeous dogs running around. Unfortunately some of them are a bit blurry.

I have a 14 day period in which I can "exchange" the camera. The 60D is $300 AUD more but it is heavier/bigger.

So my question is:
How much better would the 60D perform in the sports/continuous mode?

From my reading it seems that the 600D vs 60D are going to perform pretty similarly for still shots etc. But I just wonder how much better/faster the 60D autofocus would be for these kind action shots. I will do some photography of animals but particularly want to be able to take good candid shots of running around, on swings etc.

Unfortunately I don't have the $$ to go up to the 7D or 5D Mark II (and I think would seem a bit awkward/big for me to carry around my neck.)

Thanks.

[Mimsy]

Just to clarify:

I was using the 18-55 kit lens today.
I also bought the "Nifty Fifty" lens and have been pretty happy with the portrait shots I am getting. (Loving "bokeh" and I didn't even know what it was a week ago!)

I know that these 2 lenses are both plastic - but I have already asked Father Christmas to keep his eye out for more lenses for me.

Would upgrading to 60D, or saving for better lenses make a bigger difference for speed of autofocus in Sports mode?

Thanks

[ishootRAW]

Yes. First the 60d's AF system is better. And (if I'm wrong, correct me) all 9 AF points are cross-type, while the 600ds only the center is. The 5.whatever burst rate will help too. IMHO the 60D is a camera that will last you longer.

Lenes: forget the 18-55. Keep the 50. If you get the 60d. Get it with the 18-200 or 18-135. I would also consider the 17-85. It's a little sharper and a bit quicker on the AF. OR if you like bokeh, the Tamron 17-50 2.8.

Last but not least. I think that you may need to Learn a bit more. This sounds like it could corrected by technique adjustment. Remember that the best way to fix a problem is not always to throw money at it.

Perhaps you could post some photos? That way we can see what type of blur we are talking about.

[mrteacherdude]

Welcome to DPS Mimsy!

You seem to have a couple of different questions going. Since you said you researched for awhile before you made a purchase decision, I'll assume you did a more thorough job than I just did. I'll also assume from what you wrote is that at least part of your purchase decision was based on how much money you have to, or are willing to invest in the equipment. Note that I do not have experience with either one of these cameras so I can only write from the perspective of a couple of things I have read about them, and from my own personal experience with two other Canon models and trying to do the same thing you have written about.

The few test results and spec sheets I read about the two cameras in question show that the 60d has a superior autofocus system, and it also acquires and processes images faster. Essentially what this means is you should get better performance out of the 60d when shooting fast moving stuff.

However, if you are using the same lens you currently own, I really doubt you will see a dramatic, if any, increase in your keeper rate. The 18-55mm lens is a "good" lens and you can get some pretty great images with it, especially when you adjust the camera to take advantage of the lens' sweet spots. My original Rebel Xti (400d) kit came with an 18-55 and a 55-250. I have many photos hanging on the walls of my home that I am quite happy with from that combination.

But - the 18-55 (and the 55-250) kit lens is not a particularly fast lens. That is, it has a microdrive autofocus system and a relatively small aperture, with the autofocus drive likely being more of a limiting factor than the aperture. It is a good general purpose lens, but falls short when you get into either low light, fast action, or both. Obviously you can get some good images in good light and fast action as you have already noticed, but the keeper rate may not be as high as you would like; it just can't focus that fast.

The first thing I did to increase my keeper rate in action situations was to get out of sports mode. I just noticed that ishootraw beat me to post, and he suggested learning more about technique. I agree. Learning good technique and how to get out of the auto modes will ultimately give you more control over what your camera does, and you will be able to force your camera to make adjustments that it simply won't do in one of the auto modes.

The second thing I did was buy a better lens. The lens made a dramatic improvement in my keeper rate. I bought one with ring USM and a wide aperture. The ring USM for autofocus speed, and the large aperture for low light. The combination allowed me to not only get better action results, but it allowed me to move indoors to shoot action, as long as it wasn't totally dark. Incidentally, your 50mm plastic fantastic is a great lens, but personally I wouldn't try to use it for action - it's really deliberate (sloooooowwwww) when focusing. I think I tried mine once and didn't get any usable photos at all. Don't get rid of it though, it comes in handy for other situations.

ishootraw is correct in the 60d is more durable and will likely last you longer. As others have noted in other threads, the 60d also has more flexible and improved user interfaces. But, if you have a typical learning cycle, and don't want to invest a large sum of money at this time, you can easily spend a couple of years just learning how to take better pictures with the Rebel (600d) and invest in some better glass. By the time you feel pretty confident in your abilities, the next generation (or 2nd or 3rd) beyond your camera will be out and you will want to either move into that generation or upgrade to the next class or two beyond that, and your 600d will probably still have lots of life left in it. My Xti (400d) still comes out to play :-)

[inkista]

I'm with teacherdude, and respectfully disagree with Matthew.

While moving from a 600D to a 60D will see a slight improvement in AF performance, I also found that upgrading from a consumer zoom (in my case, the EF 75-300 III non-IS, non-USM version) to a white USM L supertele (EF 400mm f/5.6L USM) made a far more dramatic difference than upgrading from an XT to a 50D (and that was moving from 7-pt/center cross to 9-pt AF/all cross).

And burst rate doesn't help you get better shots if your timing is still for crap. It just helps you get more shots. It breaks down what you get into finer slices of time. But it's not going to be any more useful at getting "missed" shots spray'n'pray style. Short controlled bursts are still the order of the day.

Using an XT and an EF 400mm f/5.6L USM, I was still able to get shots like this of a fast-moving bird in flight (the bird streaked by overhead, and I had about a second to draw a bead, get AF lock, and shoot a three-shot burst):


Canon XT/350D. EF 400mm f/5.6L USM. iso 200, f/5.6, 1/1250s.

And I can still royally screw up my AF even when birding with the 50D.


Canon 50D. EF 400mm f/5.6L USM. iso 800, f/5.6, 1/2500s.

A better fast-action body is no guarantee of a technically perfect shot every time. It makes things a little easier, but it doesn' t make them easy. So, lens before body, but also work on your technique.

Also, getting a higher-tiered camera doesn't mean it's going to last any longer than a lower tiered body. These are digital electronics. Like cellphones and computers, going higher up the scale doesn't necessarily mean you keep it longer--it just means you can enjoy more features while you have it. Most of us tend to upgrade bodies within 3 to 5 years just from feature-lust; camera bodies are easily the most disposable part of the system. Lenses move with you from camera to camera, and depreciate and are superseded much more slowly. New dRebels come out every year. xxDs every 18 months to two years; there are some lenses still in the Canon current lineup that were released in the '80s. The bulk of the money that you spend on camera gear that stays with you is going to be in your glass.

Learn about lenses.

One last trick that might help you with fast-action shooting, is to learn how to back-button autofocus. When I'm birding and event shooting, I tend to use back-button autofocus for better control over my AF system.

And to finish up, don't fall too much into the trap of fixating about gear when maybe what you need to work on is technique.



In short, yes, a 60D/7D/1DMkIV would be better for fast-action shooting. But a 600D can still get the job done if you know what you're doing. It's just a bit harder.

[ishootRAW]

Originally Posted by inkista

One last trick that might help you with fast-action shooting, is to learn how to back-button autofocus.

And to finish up, don't fall too much into the trap of fixating about gear when maybe what you need to work on is technique.



In short, yes, a 60D/7D/1DMkIV would be better for fast-action shooting. But a 600D can still get the job done if you know what you're doing. It's just a bit harder.

I defer to the master.

1: I forgot to mention the back button, It is indeed very useful.

2:By last longer, I meant that the OP will probably go longer without wanting to upgrade it. not the actual shutter life. (I still use my 20D on a regular basis, but sold the 300d)

3:I completely agree, technique is perhaps the most important thing. But sometimes, gear will limit the ability to use that technique. (I felt this way with my 300D)

Back on gear, I completely agree that the lens is more important then the body. I obviously did not make that clear enough. This should say something. pro dslr and cheapo lens vs cheap dslr and pro lens.

[Mimsy]

Hi there,

Thank you so much for your comments and very helpful info.

ishootRAW: "I think that you may need to Learn a bit more." - Absolutely!! I feel like I am still in dSLR kindergarten! So much to learn. I am really loving playing with the camera, reading about stuff and then playing again.

mrteacherdude: Wow, very helpful. Do you want to come over to my place and give me some lessons
"I'll assume you did a more thorough job than I just did"
I may have spent more time but given that I knew literally zero about photography before reading I spent most of my time just figuring out what things like ISO meant!!
So 5 minutes research by you probably gave you a better grasp of the 600D vs 60D than my week of reading gave me.

inkista: Awesome photos! Thanks for sharing and for your comments. Particularly helpful to see what you achieved with your 350D. Unfortunately that superb lens you are using is out of my price bracket for the moment. But hopefully by the time I have learnt how to use my camera and current lenses well I will have some $$ saved for something good.

I spent most of my time last week learning about cameras and comparing. So as far as my knowledge about lenses go - I am a baby novice. I would love to invest in a good lens (ie glass, USM, not sure yet of focal length range that will best suit me) but for that it is going to be $1000+AUD and will have to wait until Christmas.

But for now I think I can keep myself busy learning about the camera/photography and using the kit lens and my nifty fifty.

ishootRAW: "Get it with the 18-200 or 18-135."
These lenses look good but are more $$ and bigger/heavier. And, if I understand correctly, these lenses, being glass and without USM, won't perform any better for action photography. $400 more for the 18-135, $600 more for the 18-200. Either of these would seriously stretch the budget. And I am not sure if they would be worth it.

Any opinions on the 18-135 vs my current 18-55. Unfortunately this is the best lens upgrade I could afford at the moment. But maybe I would be better off keeping the $400 toward my Christmas present of a glass lens, or even spending it on one of the many photography courses around.

Have to go now, but will be back in a few hours to read over your posts again (as sometimes I need to read stuff twice for it to sink in).

Again, many thanks you all. Greatly appreciated.

[mrteacherdude]

For action photography, you want a fast lens. It may not need to have a very large aperture (small f #) if you are shooting outdoors in good light, such as the lens inkista is using to get those awesome bird shots, but you do want one that is capable of focusing quickly and accurately. Many of the general purpose walk-around zoom lenses that are going to be within what you consider to be your budget for lenses are not likely to be fast enough for serious action shooting. It can be done, but you are looking for a greater keeper rate.

Two lenses that I can suggest that are relatively inexpensive and will give you pretty good action results are:

Canon 85mm f1.8. This is a prime lens with pretty good optical quality and very fast ring USM autofocus with manual override (which can come in handy at times). Since it can open up to 1.8 and still give pretty decent IQ at that aperture, it can be used indoors in relatively low light conditions; much like your nifty-fifty, but way better for focus accuracy and speed, and it will give you more reach. I purchased mine for about 400 USD and have been very happy with it shooting ring-side at indoor dog shows, among other things.

But you need to know that it is a prime so you cannot change the focal length (like your 50mm), and 85mm is not a really long lens; not suitable for trying to capture moving stuff that is very far away. Like your 50mm, this lens also does not have IS, but when shooting action, you're using fast shutters speeds anyway so IS doesn't matter that much, if at all. I think I've read that IS can actually be a detriment shooting action with fast shutter speeds. Some people use this lens at venues such as indoor basketball and hockey games. And like I said, I often use it ringside at dog shows. If I capture a small dog going down the runway of the ring right next to me, I can fill the frame with the dog. On the other side of the ring (about 30 feet away), I will get the dog and maybe all of the handler showing the dog, depending on the angle. Large dogs may actually be too big when they are close, and I have to wait for them to be on the opposite side of the ring to get the entire dog into the frame. I also find the quality of the photos I get with that lens is often high enough that I can crop quite a bit if needed, and still get a good quality photo.

Shot at 1/640s, ISO 800 with EF 85mm f1.8 @ 2.8


Shot at 1/800s @ ISO 200 with EF 85mm f1.8 @ 3.2



Canon 75-300mm f4-5.6 USM IS. I do not own this lens, but have borrowed one on occasion. It has a pretty fast USM motor, but is not the really fast version. However, it is still much faster (autofocus-wise) than entry-level consumer lenses I have used. I own the entry level 55-250 and I can get some good pics with it. When I use the 75-300, I get slightly to much better IQ than the 55-250 (depending on lighting and technique), but the action keeper rate is considerably higher. I would consider this to be an "outdoor good light lens" though, perfectly adequate for getting good pics of a dogs catching Frizbees and chasing birds in the park. To buy one I think runs about 550-600 USD new, and I've seen used ones for sale for about 450 USD. I was seriously considering buying one, but decided to rent an L quality zoom to see if I liked that much better. Silly me... I now find myself lusting over lenses like inkista uses to get those shots of birds streaking overhead, and am currently negotiating a deal with the devil in order to fill my bag with L lenses (JK). Seriously though, I think this is a great step-up lens, and sounds like it might fit your current budget.

Shot at 1/500s @ ISO 100 with EF 70-300mm f4-5.6 @ 4.5, focal length = 70mm

Note that I do not consider this to be one of my better images, I have others in this series that are better but are not part of my Flickr stream yet. The original capture would have likely improved if I had increased the ISO and shutter speed to increase sensitivity of the sensor and stop action more effectively, respectively, but this was my first time with this lens and I was trying to get a feel for it.

When you are ready to start researching lenses, I have several recommended sites to start with:

Lensrentals. It's a rental site, but Roger has great information there about each of the lenses he rents.

The-Digital-Picture. This man primarily reviews and writes about Canon hardware, but he also reviews some third-party lenses and often compares several different brands within the same review. I have found information here to be quite helpful when making purchase or rental decisions.

SLR Gear. The information in this site can be quite technical, but the authors often have very nice summaries and may also include some generalized comparisons of several manufactures lenses in a given focal length and quality range.