Frustrated!-High Key Lighting Problems

[mshockley]

Hello!

Okay, I've been messing around for the last couple days with my lighting for some high key stock images, and cannot for the life of me figure out what is wrong!

I'm using a basic high key lighting layout such as this:


Now here's where I'm running into problems, when my histogram shows a good exposure on my subject, my background is definitely far from bright white.

When my histogram is blinking at me and shows the background as completely blown, I have 2 problems: when I open image to process I can immediately see that it still really isn't bright white, and now I feel like my subject is overexposed! I have to bump the Brightness slider way up to get to a nice white, which as I said, I think is overexposing my image. And besides, I shouldn't have to mess with this should I?? The darn thing should be white when I open it


Here's an example of one from tonight. Taken at ISO 100, 1/80th at f/9

What in the world am I doing wrong?

[jdepould]

You're probably too close to the background for starters.

As long as the background is on the right edge (not blown), you're good. Tweak it in post (levels).

If you blow the background, you also might get some CAs along the edges of your subject.

It also looks like your fill level is too high, move the light back or dial it down.

[mshockley]

Originally Posted by jdepould

You're probably too close to the background for starters.

As long as the background is on the right edge (not blown), you're good. Tweak it in post (levels).

If you blow the background, you also might get some CAs along the edges of your subject.

It also looks like your fill level is too high, move the light back or dial it down.

Okay, now I have a new question then: I am quite close to the background. The bear in the example is only about 5" in size if this gives you an idea of what I'm doing. The "background" is a piece of white poster board sitting on a small countertop area, and my 2 lights I'm using for the background are speedlights sitting on both edges of the countertop facing the background. The bear is towards the front of these lights. I would say my main and fill studio flashes are pretty close also, maybe 2.5 feet off the diagonal corner of countertop.

BUT, the reason they are this close now is because after all my epic failures yesterday I started moving in closer, and have had things dialed all over the map. I'm to the point where I'm quite confused.

Also, are you saying the background appearing a bit grayish when I open in RAW and process is normal? I'm trying to fix it there, and I get the impression your saying leave it alone and fix it with a levels layer???

Sorry for so many questions but I really would like to wrap my head around this concept properly once and for all!

[jdepould]

Originally Posted by mshockley

Okay, now I have a new question then: I am quite close to the background. The bear in the example is only about 5" in size if this gives you an idea of what I'm doing. The "background" is a piece of white poster board sitting on a small countertop area, and my 2 lights I'm using for the background are speedlights sitting on both edges of the countertop facing the background. The bear is towards the front of these lights. I would say my main and fill studio flashes are pretty close also, maybe 2.5 feet off the diagonal corner of countertop.

I'd say get a bigger background and put some distance between your subject and background. Zooming in or getting a longer lens may also help with perspective/distortion.

Originally Posted by mshockley

Also, are you saying the background appearing a bit grayish when I open in RAW and process is normal? I'm trying to fix it there, and I get the impression your saying leave it alone and fix it with a levels layer???

Pretty much. In post, you can push the highlights past 255 (absolute white in digital terms), but you can't bring it back after it's blown (well, sometimes you can, but let's keep it simple).

If you can get your RGB values around 250 when you mouse over in PS, it'll be a nice looking white.

Simply put, when shooting high key, leave yourself some headroom.

IIRC, there's 3-4 stops difference between the key light and the background light. Now, I didn't do a great job in post with this, but it's right about where you want it coming out of the camera. The bg may be a touch dark, and her right (camera left) shoulder is nearly clipping. The important part is that all of the data is good: no clipping, good signal-to-noise.

Edit: that was lit with four speedotron heads: two large reflectors with diffusion on the bg, key was a beauty dish with gobo, and the fill was ... something.

[mshockley]

Thank-you so much for all your help! I'm going to get this figured out

[i speak in math]

Originally Posted by jdepould

I'd say get a bigger background and put some distance between your subject and background. Zooming in or getting a longer lens may also help with perspective/distortion.



Pretty much. In post, you can push the highlights past 255 (absolute white in digital terms), but you can't bring it back after it's blown (well, sometimes you can, but let's keep it simple).

If you can get your RGB values around 250 when you mouse over in PS, it'll be a nice looking white.

Simply put, when shooting high key, leave yourself some headroom.

IIRC, there's 3-4 stops difference between the key light and the background light. Now, I didn't do a great job in post with this, but it's right about where you want it coming out of the camera. The bg may be a touch dark, and her right (camera left) shoulder is nearly clipping. The important part is that all of the data is good: no clipping, good signal-to-noise.

Edit: that was lit with four speedotron heads: two large reflectors with diffusion on the bg, key was a beauty dish with gobo, and the fill was ... something.

Your background looks good, but thats not really a high key image. You have plenty of deep shadow. When I shoot high key with models, I usually use a clamshell setup. This helps eliminate shadows and looks good almost every time. For small products, I would use a similar technique, ignoring the lower half of the clamshell and just have 1 huge front light source.

The key to the white background is space and ratio. A good 3 stops over your key should work great if you have a lens that doesn't produce a lot of fringing. Then get you subject away from the background and light it with a totally different set of lights.

[mshockley]

Originally Posted by i speak in math

Your background looks good, but thats not really a high key image. You have plenty of deep shadow. When I shoot high key with models, I usually use a clamshell setup. This helps eliminate shadows and looks good almost every time. For small products, I would use a similar technique, ignoring the lower half of the clamshell and just have 1 huge front light source.

The key to the white background is space and ratio. A good 3 stops over your key should work great if you have a lens that doesn't produce a lot of fringing. Then get you subject away from the background and light it with a totally different set of lights.

So your suggesting I try using just one main light-- say at maybe right behind/beside camera and light the background with my 2 speedlights?

[i speak in math]

Originally Posted by mshockley

So your suggesting I try using just one main light-- say at maybe right behind/beside camera and light the background with my 2 speedlights?

Yep, high key light is all about eliminating deep shadow (but not about overexposing). Lighting from on axis helps get rid of shadows from the cameras viewpoint.

[mshockley]

Originally Posted by i speak in math

Yep, high key light is all about eliminating deep shadow (but not about overexposing). Lighting from on axis helps get rid of shadows from the cameras viewpoint.

all right then, I'm going to go back at it first thing in the morning! I kid you not, this is the first time EVER that I am just completely worn out from taking pictures!

My set-up is not ideal, as my studio space is on the main floor--where I want it for client purposes, but my office on the second floor. I've spent the better part of the day screwing around with these lights, taking pictures, leaving the studio to go to my office.....cussing when I open the file......return back to studio and repeat. I have many choice words I'm just too nice to repeat...lol.

Tomorrow is another day....
Thank-you both for your help!

[zona5101]

I wouldn't get hung up on high key or not high key. All you really want is decent product shots on a white background. That is very hard to get if the object is too close to the background because you blow out the edges with flare from the back if the lights are up high enought to give you that pure white BG and you get gray if the lights are too low.
As far as the front light (main+fill vs a single light) you have to decide if you want the shadows... the shadow helps define the object and give it some 3 dimensionality. Look through the types of shots you are trying to emulate and see if the lighting was flat or shadowed and set your lights accordingly.