Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why should new shooters care about the status quo of the photo industry?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by sk66 View Post
    Yes Jim, it's time. And maybe pay someone to do the shoot so you can be "a part of the family" and not the photographer
    Good idea!
    http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/jimbryant
    http://jimbryantphotography.blogspot.com/
    (1) EOS 1D MKIII (3) EOS 1D's, (3) EOS1D MKIIs', (1) EOS1Ds MKII, 14mmf2.8, 16-35mmf2.8, 28-70mmf2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8 and a 400mmf2.8, (4) 550 EX and 1 580E speedlite, and a Speed a tron studio flash system.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jim Bryant View Post
      One of the reasons why I web research a company is to see, what kind of company they are, what they produce, who their clients are and what Advertising firm that handles their advertising and PR needs. If, a NY, Chicago or LA AD Firm handles their account it give me a ball park figure what to include into my bid, if I make it into the talking stages

      Same with a prospective wedding client, with google, it's easier than hell these days. Her husband was President of a University in Tacoma and she was the Senior VP of a Bank in Seattle, they could have afforded my asking price of $4500.00. While talking with them,the wedding was going to be held at St. James Cathedral, and the reception at Tacoma Golf & Country Club. So, you can imagine, what the bride's dress cost and the rental for bride maids dresses, food, flowers and booze and the honeymoon was to be in Paris. You can imagine my shock when she wanted to pay $1500.00 for about 12 hours of work. This included bridge and maids getting ready, candid portraits, formal portraits, the wedding and reception.

      I imagine some of you here might have jumped on the bandwagon, however, for what they wanted and was willing to pay didn't interest me at all. Too much work. Maybe if, I hadn't done the research to found out, who and what they were, I just might have turned in a lower bid.

      Same thing with corporations, who hire PR agencies to handle their accounts. Can you imagine what the PR agencies charge for their services and the photographers? That. my friends, is why I research. These agencies are geared to pay big $$$$ for the photographer they hire, why because they overcharge the companies. Knowing this info, I stand my ground on what they pay photographers. If they want to pay lower than my bid, I normally as the AD rep, what are they budgeted for and what licensing and image rights do they want. From there is haggle city, unit both parties can agree. Still, whatever the price we agree on, I can bet my ass that they are going to charge the company at least 35% over what's paid to me.

      It's all a numbers game and the sooner photographers learn these tactics, and not accept any old price offered we all can benefit. So, do you research.....hell you can find most anybody on the web in one search site or another.
      +1 Jim...it's called doing your homework, basic sales 101
      Vince "...the law of unintended consequences, sometimes, you get a truly memorable photograph"
      Gear: Canon G2, Canon 20D, Nikon D300...bunch of lenses
      My Flickr
      www.montalbanophotography.com

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jim Bryant View Post
        My daughter rode English Dressage for seven years before switching over to Western Gaming. The traditional English Dressage folks could afford pictures, while the Western gaming folks couldn't. I shot a couple of events of both and made some good money. But when the economy tanked and gas prices rose, I stopped attending. Once again, it was due to the fact, that dSLR's users on sports mode, pretty much killed the business. However, that's not the same at the bigger events. where a pro photographer has landed the contract. Still, he has to donate 10, 15 or even 20% back to the organization. Seems like now these day everyone wants a piece of the pie.
        The Western Pleasure people are on the same level as the English, they will and can pay for great photos...and I have been to some of the big shows or the state 4H competitions and those guys take awesome photos that sell like hotcakes..

        Playday people, they are not going to spend much...neither will the smaller team penning or reining clubs.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jim Bryant View Post
          One of the reasons why I web research a company is to see, what kind of company they are, what they produce, who their clients are and what Advertising firm that handles their advertising and PR needs. If, a NY, Chicago or LA AD Firm handles their account it give me a ball park figure what to include into my bid, if I make it into the talking stages

          Same with a prospective wedding client, with google, it's easier than hell these days. Her husband was President of a University in Tacoma and she was the Senior VP of a Bank in Seattle, they could have afforded my asking price of $4500.00. While talking with them,the wedding was going to be held at St. James Cathedral, and the reception at Tacoma Golf & Country Club. So, you can imagine, what the bride's dress cost and the rental for bride maids dresses, food, flowers and booze and the honeymoon was to be in Paris. You can imagine my shock when she wanted to pay $1500.00 for about 12 hours of work. This included bridge and maids getting ready, candid portraits, formal portraits, the wedding and reception.

          I imagine some of you here might have jumped on the bandwagon, however, for what they wanted and was willing to pay didn't interest me at all. Too much work. Maybe if, I hadn't done the research to found out, who and what they were, I just might have turned in a lower bid.

          Same thing with corporations, who hire PR agencies to handle their accounts. Can you imagine what the PR agencies charge for their services and the photographers? That, my friends, is why I research. These agencies are geared to pay big $$$$ for the photographer they hire, why because they overcharge the companies. Knowing this info, I stand my ground on what they pay photographers. If they want to pay lower than my bid, I normally ask the AD rep, what are they budgeted for this project and what licensing and image rights do they want to purchase and for how long. From there is haggle city, unit both parties can agree. Still, whatever the price we agree on, I can bet my ass that they are going to charge the company at least 35% over what's paid to me.

          It's all a numbers game and the sooner photographers learn these tactics, and not accept any old price offered we all can benefit. So, do you research.....hell you can find most anybody on the web in one search site or another.
          thank you for the clarification, this makes sense. I misunderstood your post on the other thread.

          Comment


          • Now problem. sometimes I assume folks know what I am talking about. I forget from time-to-time, that I need to explain. It was from the other thread and my ass was chapped and my brain not thinking fully. Know what I mean?
            http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/jimbryant
            http://jimbryantphotography.blogspot.com/
            (1) EOS 1D MKIII (3) EOS 1D's, (3) EOS1D MKIIs', (1) EOS1Ds MKII, 14mmf2.8, 16-35mmf2.8, 28-70mmf2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8 and a 400mmf2.8, (4) 550 EX and 1 580E speedlite, and a Speed a tron studio flash system.

            Comment


            • OP: Why should new shooters care about the status quo of the photo industry?

              A: The lack of a single unified stance or over-riding agreement on certain ideas or even the presence of a single source of knowledge means that this is an unnecessary question - as a pure form of a capitalist marketplace with lowered barriers to entry there is no photo industry anymore, just a series of related subsections. It's a bit controversial, but it allows for the stances held previously to all be valid - but related to only certain parts of this industry as spoken about.

              Manufacturers surely revel in an increased consumption of enthusiast to pro-level gear. Photographers in long established markets such as wedding worry about the damage caused by rogue newcomers and the negative media exposure. New market photographers enjoy the increased exposure as more people are informed of these growing markets to be come customers. No one answer and no one is affected the same.

              As Steve (Niresangwa) attempts to move us, it is more relevant to focus on how to optimise and move with the changing scenery.

              Perhaps we need to focus on different questions to benefit all entering photography as a career:
              What markets are under-resourced?
              How can we increase customers whilst providing a steady income stream?
              As the Baby Boomer generation ages, how are purchasing decisions being made differently in the younger generations?
              What is important in the different marketplaces - i.e. in Pet photography, a high quality printed image may be so much more relevant than in Baby Photography where smaller images and digital are more prevalent to allow dissemination of the images?
              How do we influence market value positively?
              How do we sustain our careers?
              Pentaxian
              500px

              Comment


              • I'm an amateur / hobbyist. I also have a job in a high-tech industry where technological improvements making things easier or obsolete is common.

                It's a little shocking to see so many photographers seemingly cursing the fact that technological developments are making it easier for non-professionals to produce "decent" work. (Where "decent" here only means "meets their requirements".) Cursing technological progress is not a business model. Ask the recording industry. Or, for that matter, painters, whose business waned as photography improved. There's still a market for paintings (and, for that matter, buggy whips, but let's not get in to that), but it's not the same as the old market for portraiture. Likewise, professional photographers still add value, but need to focus on those areas where their products are subjectively more valuable than what an amateur with a DSLR or Instagram can accomplish.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MattG View Post
                  Perhaps we need to focus on different questions to benefit all entering photography as a career:
                  What markets are under-resourced?
                  How can we increase customers whilst providing a steady income stream?
                  As the Baby Boomer generation ages, how are purchasing decisions being made differently in the younger generations?
                  What is important in the different marketplaces - i.e. in Pet photography, a high quality printed image may be so much more relevant than in Baby Photography where smaller images and digital are more prevalent to allow dissemination of the images?
                  How do we influence market value positively?
                  How do we sustain our careers?
                  I think the issue reappears. As professional photographers move into "under-resourced" markets, how long do you think it will be before those same "buy a DSLR and charge" shooters begin to appear there? As far as Pet, baby and maternity photography is concerned, those shooters are already making their presence known. Those two women I talked about an eternity ago, my daughter-in-law and family friend, are already advertising in two of them. The only areas that may be safe for longer would be those highly specialized ones. Things like pro-sports (where credentials are required) and scientific macro (that requires expensive, specialized equipment). But even those areas may begin to fall to the increase of lower cost technology.

                  Just because the advance of technology is inevitable, that doesn't mean that's it's good for the entire industry. Just because new technology can create new opportunities, that matters not one wit to the person who has just been "teched" out of their career. It's easy for a newbie to say "just adjust", but it really isn't that easy to do.
                  Kevin
                  Canon EOS 60D, Canon EOS T3i, Canon A-1, Canon AE-1 Program, Various lenses
                  http://500px.com/VeritasImageryNW/photos
                  http://veritasimagerynw.smugmug.com/

                  Comment


                  • my comments werent' intended to be directly pointed at you, I am sorry if I came across like that
                    No dramas No offence taken, even if it seemed that way (it was late :P)

                    My point is that how you present yourself and the business ALSO affects people's perceptions,....and I would argue that personal feelings will very much affect how well your bills are paid; if someone sees you as condescending or angry, they aren't going to hire you
                    I absolutely agree. But I was talking about not spending time on say weddings when I spe******e in say cars and not taking it personally or getting emotionally involved about a pricing strategy for something I don't target - if that makes sense. I agree that personal feelings when it comes to your own clientele are important to consider when DEALING with the client. But feelings and paper don't mix. For example; All my life my family have done the best they could to get by, I've never had a lot of money, when I had saved up £3,500 to buy my car, I was excited. I now have more money in my business account than I've ever had in my life (still not a great deal). I login to my bank account just to see if it's changed by £100 some days. I like to have it there to look at, to be proud of. However, on paper, I should be taking a big chunk of that out and paying off some of my loan. Because in the long run, the loan is going to cost me an additional £6,000!

                    Same with a prospective wedding client, with google, it's easier than hell these days
                    I research my client too. Not to the same extent, but I do a little digging. It can sound bad but it's purely to improve service. When someone uses my contact form, it sends me where they came from, what they were searching for and I have a quick link to their facebook. I do this so that when someone says "are you available on 12th May?", I can see where the venue is and get an idea of what to include in my reply. For example, over 100 miles I charge for mileage. If I don't know where they are and it turns out they are £1,000 in travel over and I quote them the base rate then either I get screwed or I have the job of saying, actually it'll be an extra £XXX (which as I mentioned before, adding stuff at the end is very bad)


                    Same thing with corporations, who hire PR agencies to handle their accounts. Can you imagine what the PR agencies charge for their services and the photographers?
                    I've had corp PR/Ad clients that have told me they up my price by 20-30% for their client. When a company has £6 billion, £20k vs £18k isn't an issue for them. The same as a tin of beans at 17p or 16p doesn't make a difference to you/us. (That said, Heinz Moshi Monsters spaghetti shapes are currently 2p more than Bob the Builder ones in Asda!)

                    I shot a couple of events of both and made some good money. But when the economy tanked and gas prices rose, I stopped attending. Once again, it was due to the fact, that dSLR's users on sports mode, pretty much killed the business. However, that's not the same at the bigger events.
                    A good example of what I pointed out before. The budget level is volatile and risky, the rich are always rich!

                    As Steve (Niresangwa) attempts to move us, it is more relevant to focus on how to optimise and move with the changing scenery.
                    I think we should adapt. Caving in to consumer pressure is always a bad idea. We should certainly look at innovative ways to advance, but ways that don't involve giving the consumer what they think they want because, as I said, they don't know the business side of things. Consumers will be happy when they get pro photography for £50 all in - or less. At which point, we all fall out of business and then the consumer gets nothing.

                    As far as Pet, baby and maternity photography is concerned, those shooters are already making their presence known.
                    I agree, 2 examples;

                    1. I applied for a week morning job taking photos in a maternity ward, the first photo of the baby. When I got the form it said 4 hours a morning, 6 mornings a week on rotation. I have to snap the pic essentially when the baby has fired out and then sell it. I get £5 per sale. No wage, no hourly rate, £5 per sale. And what mother wants to be hassled by a kid with a camera when they look like shit and their insides have just fallen out?

                    2. http://www.picture-pal.co.uk/.......I've complained about these people before. I'll see if there's a job ad...Recruitment - Come and work with us! - picture-pal Now I know for a fact they send out college kids with bridge cameras and popup flash. Again, no hourly rate, ~39% commission. Highlights of the ad;

                    - We are looking for target driven people
                    - Your aim is to sell as many photos as you can to as many people as you can.
                    - No experience is necessary as all professional equipment & training is provided,

                    I even looked at their professional training programme. I believe it was 4 weeks into the job that requires know knowledge and you could apply to be a trainer o_O

                    Example of the work:




                    .... wonder if this post is longer than my last lol...
                    Last edited by Biomech; 05-16-2012, 11:02 AM.
                    Art: www.jamieorourke.co.uk
                    Work: www.jamieorourkephotography.co.uk
                    Sony a200 Sony a580, Canon 500D, Canon 550D, Canon 600D, Canon 600D

                    Comment


                    • Nice like the way the women's dark hair gets lost in the dark background.
                      http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/jimbryant
                      http://jimbryantphotography.blogspot.com/
                      (1) EOS 1D MKIII (3) EOS 1D's, (3) EOS1D MKIIs', (1) EOS1Ds MKII, 14mmf2.8, 16-35mmf2.8, 28-70mmf2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8 and a 400mmf2.8, (4) 550 EX and 1 580E speedlite, and a Speed a tron studio flash system.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jim Bryant View Post
                        Nice like the way the women's dark hair gets lost in the dark background.
                        That's how a pro does it.
                        That way you don't have to edit out flyaway hairs.
                        Steve
                        the Photographic Academy.com
                        SharpShooter Industries
                        My 500px, My Flickr, My Blog

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by sk66 View Post
                          That's how a pro does it.
                          That way you don't have to edit out flyaway hairs.
                          Now, with four weeks of training, most likely on the job, that's funny.
                          http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/jimbryant
                          http://jimbryantphotography.blogspot.com/
                          (1) EOS 1D MKIII (3) EOS 1D's, (3) EOS1D MKIIs', (1) EOS1Ds MKII, 14mmf2.8, 16-35mmf2.8, 28-70mmf2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8 and a 400mmf2.8, (4) 550 EX and 1 580E speedlite, and a Speed a tron studio flash system.

                          Comment


                          • I had this whole long post all typed out, and then I accidentally hit the browser's back button.
                            Here's the recreation of it:

                            I'm part of an online focus group panel for new products. Every couple of weeks, I have to review an ad for a new product and occasionally I get to review the product itself. At the end of every survey, they ask the same two questions:

                            Is this product new/different from other products on the market?
                            Does this product offer a better way of doing things than other products on the market?

                            Right now, professional photography is not sufficiently new/different from the dslr-owner photography, at least in consumers' eyes. Short of a American Dairy Association-style ad campaign to educate the consumer, I doubt this will change.

                            Professional photography does not offer a better way of doing things in consumers' eyes either. At times, it even seems more restrictive, as the 50 quid/unlimited outfit package above illustrates. We can't compete with them on price, and if someone wants a studio shot, they just go to Sears/JC Penney where the camera does the thinking and the "photographer" is a performer who gets kids to smile. We can't compete on price there, either.

                            What does that leave? We can't compete on price, and we can't compete (in the mass market) on quality, so we need to offer a different product. My thought: take it back to the old school. Offer users the experience of sitting for a one-of-a-kind daguerreotype in a nice plasticine and felt case.

                            It has the benefit of requiring knowledge that can't be bought at best buy in a kit with a camera bag and a memory card.
                            Facebook | Flickr | 500px
                            www.nathanfrankephotography.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jim Bryant View Post
                              Nice like the way the women's dark hair gets lost in the dark background.
                              but the posing! I didn't even notice the hair, I was just wondering why she was squatting? was it taken at a bathroom line?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NathanFranke View Post
                                I had this whole long post all typed out, and then I accidentally hit the browser's back button.
                                Here's the recreation of it:

                                I'm part of an online focus group panel for new products. Every couple of weeks, I have to review an ad for a new product and occasionally I get to review the product itself. At the end of every survey, they ask the same two questions:

                                Is this product new/different from other products on the market?
                                Does this product offer a better way of doing things than other products on the market?

                                Right now, professional photography is not sufficiently new/different from the dslr-owner photography, at least in consumers' eyes. Short of a American Dairy Association-style ad campaign to educate the consumer, I doubt this will change.

                                Professional photography does not offer a better way of doing things in consumers' eyes either. At times, it even seems more restrictive, as the 50 quid/unlimited outfit package above illustrates. We can't compete with them on price, and if someone wants a studio shot, they just go to Sears/JC Penney where the camera does the thinking and the "photographer" is a performer who gets kids to smile. We can't compete on price there, either.

                                What does that leave? We can't compete on price, and we can't compete (in the mass market) on quality, so we need to offer a different product. My thought: take it back to the old school. Offer users the experience of sitting for a one-of-a-kind daguerreotype in a nice plasticine and felt case.

                                It has the benefit of requiring knowledge that can't be bought at best buy in a kit with a camera bag and a memory card.
                                I was thinking yesterday that most of those package photos with everyone in the same lined up pose, mom here, dad here, little kid here, big kid here..>SMILE! photos are not the ones you think of fondly or pore over in photo albums...

                                at the park with the prom kids the other day, I got frustrated really quickly that everyone wanted them to line up, girls in front, boys in back...no one looking at the background, trees growing out of people's head (hey I learnt ONE thing at least! no trees sprouting outta heads!) and everyone clicking away with no regard of posing or who was looking where or even if you could see everyone's faces!

                                I managed to drag "my" pair away for a VERY few individual and couple shots before I had to leave but I was amazed that these people had this GORGEOUS park with a lake and all they wanted was a line of bodies...they could have saved time and just done that at school.

                                there were beautiful rocks, a dais (sp) with a brick wall behind it, many vantage points to have the lake in the background, I would have got the couples apart and arranged them around and among the rock formations, taken a big group then some couple and single shots...

                                it was frustrating..

                                but my point (and I DO have one) is that a professional photographer would have added SOOOO much more than I thought of and would have had the equipment and skill to fix problems I either didn't know how to fix or my camera wasn't up to...and they would have had some AWESOME photographs to remember the night from.

                                I don't know why they didn't have a pro come out....do they even realize what they missed out on?
                                Last edited by etexjess; 05-16-2012, 11:39 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X