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  • #16
    Originally posted by inkista View Post
    Actually, not.. quite.

    Try and get TTL PocketWizards for Sony. They exist for both Canon and Nikon, though. Try and get umbrella swivels for lightstands that take the Sony Minolta hotshoe, rather than a standard ISO hotshoe.

    Try and find a native Sony 70-200 f/4 telephoto lens for $600. Or a 28-300 full frame superzoom (aka "the paparazzi lens"). The Sony ZA 24-70/2.8 pro lens is $2000 on B&H. The NIkon one is $100 less. Canon gives you a choice between a $1600 and $2200 versions. Canon, faster-than-f/2.8-prime-wise, offers you a choice between a 28/1.8, 35/2, 35/1.4 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.8, 85/1.2, 100/2, 135/2.8, and 135/2. All of which are full-frame lenses.

    Sony has 35/1.8 (crop), 35/1.4 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8. And most of those are Zeiss ZA lenses that will cost you $1000-$2000. On the Canon side, the slower lenses are all the $350-$500 price range.

    And that's just the glass you might need. We aren't even talking about the serious exotics like tilt-shifts, macros, and fisheyes.

    Prices and availability are not the same between the brands. With Sony, in the end, you're liable to be shelling out a bit more for Zeiss glass, or having to go to 3rd party lenses. Canon and Nikon both have more lenses in the native mount, and every 3rd party lens you can find for Sony/Minolta can also be found in Canon EOS or Nikon F mounts, and probably more readily and possibly for a little bit less. Renting Sony glass is a lot harder than renting Canon or Nikon. That's the way the economics of numbers works. The most popular brands get the lion's share of 3rd party support, because the numbers mean more profit.

    That doesn't mean Sony's a worse system. But it is a smaller one with less support. You are limiting yourself. You also have no way to upgrade to a new full frame body since the A800 and A900 have been discontinued and not refreshed. There is no "pro" tier of camera bodies with integrated grips and weathersealing. Nikon and Canon both just refreshed their full-frame bodies and their pro full-frames (D4, 1DX). An old, used Canon 5D (mark I) can now be found on the used market for $1000--half the going rate on a used A800. A 5Dii is going for $1500-$1700 used/refurbished, and can be had for around $1500 on the CLP (well, today anyway).

    Don't kid yourself into thinking that the Sony system has identical advantages as the Big Two. The image quality is good. The feature set is good. The camera body prices are good. But the system overall is more limited. And as a pro, you may hit those limits harder than a hobbyist shooter. Support is the best reason to go with the Big Two. It's not the only one.
    Wow, what a load of bull.

    Lets start at the top.

    Why would he need TTL pocketwizards for what he is proposing? Oh and I have tilt/swivel lightstands for my sony hotshoe, and they cost exactly the same as for a standard iso, and are just as easily available if you are going to be ordering online.

    I cant find you a native 70-200 for $600, but I can find you lots of second hand 70-210mm f4 for $200 which is amazing glass for the money. As for the rest of the line up you are completely disregarding the impressive konica minolta line up pre sony, which are still pretty easy to come by.

    While it is fact that there is no 'a99' yet, I question the need for full frame, when the crop sensors in the latest releases are coming so close on resolution and noise. The a77 is weathersealed ASAIK.

    You only need to look at biomech's credentials to see that you can shoot professionally and shoot Sony without it being an impediment.

    From what the OP is looking to do, I think it is entirely appropriate that he continues to shoot sony, just as I do. Sony and Nikon trade off the moronic attitude shown by some and thats fine, I just dont subscribe to that. I

    f your living means that you must be able to get a replacement unit that day, then the availability of the replacement kit is of course important, and this is where Canon and Nikon have the edge.

    If you think that you are going to get better photos with a Canon/Nikon as opposed to a Sony then you need to take your head out of your *&^% and evaluate who is actually taking the frame.
    Sony Alpha 77 and 100 with a variety of lenses
    Lightroom 4 /Photoshop CS5

    My Flickr
    500px

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    • #17
      Oh and I have tilt/swivel lightstands for my sony hotshoe
      Can someone expand on this, I'm pretty sure I don't know what you mean lol - oh unless you mean like the ones you that are a pole with a "hotshoe" fixing on the end?. A light stand for a speedlight/flash? I use ummm... interfit S-Type brackets:



      You only need to look at biomech's credentials to see that you can shoot professionally and shoot Sony without it being an impediment.
      heh cool thanks
      Art: www.jamieorourke.co.uk
      Work: www.jamieorourkephotography.co.uk
      Sony a200 Sony a580, Canon 500D, Canon 550D, Canon 600D, Canon 600D

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      • #18
        I asked to use three of those A77's with the prime lenses, which are pretty expensive. Since I was a sports photographer I asked for their 16-35mm f2.8, 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 135mm 2, 300 f2.8, and 500 f4, lenses that I use. Guess it was too much money for them to loan out at one time and told them I could not give them an accurate review. Seems like the A77's and those lenses would be a kick ass kit. But still, as a camera system you're pretty much limited.
        http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/jimbryant
        http://jimbryantphotography.blogspot.com/
        (1) EOS 1D MKIII (3) EOS 1D's, (3) EOS1D MKIIs', (1) EOS1Ds MKII, 14mmf2.8, 16-35mmf2.8, 28-70mmf2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8 and a 400mmf2.8, (4) 550 EX and 1 580E speedlite, and a Speed a tron studio flash system.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by doctorjames View Post
          Wow, what a load of bull.
          Wow. Chip on the shoulder, much?

          Why would he need TTL pocketwizards for what he is proposing?
          To look different from the other bazillion papparazzi shooting the event by using off-axis light with the help of an assistant. Because eTTL allows for remote commanding as well as automatic power setting. To make going off-camera at all possible in the situations he's shooting.

          Oh and I have tilt/swivel lightstands for my sony hotshoe, and they cost exactly the same as for a standard iso, and are just as easily available if you are going to be ordering online.
          Right. So, I do a search on "umbrella swivel Sony Minolta" on Amazon, and look what pops up. Not one compatible swivel in the list. All of them compatible with everybody else's iso-compliant hotshoes. I didn't say it was impossible to find one. I said, "try and fine one". There's no way you're not going to notice how much easier it is to find iso-hotshoe compliant gear vs. Sony/Minolta hotshoe gear.

          I cant find you a native 70-200 for $600, but I can find you lots of second hand 70-210mm f4 for $200 which is amazing glass for the money.
          Oh, hell. If you're going to go used. The Magic Drainpipe is an 80-200 f/2.8L lens you can find for $500 used for Canon.

          As for the rest of the line up you are completely disregarding the impressive konica minolta line up pre sony, which are still pretty easy to come by.
          Which you have to buy USED. No warranty. No return policies. No set prices. No set availability. And you can't adapt any manual-focus vintage glass to Sony Alpha because the mount throat's too small. You have the Canon EOS limitation of not being able to use the old manual focus mount lenses (MD/MC), and you have the inability to adapt other manual focus mount systems. On Canon, with adpater rings you use six different manual focus mounts. And if you go with Pentax or Nikon, you can not only use older vintage autofocus lenses, but also manual focus lenses, too. In every other SLR system, there's more old glass out there for use to be found than in Sony Alpha/Minolta AF system.

          Sony's Zeiss ZA lenses kick ass. I've noted multiple times on this board how I think the ZA 135/1.8 is a better lens than my 135L. But ZAs cost an arm and a leg--often more than the equivalent pro L Canon lens or Nikkor pro lens. As I said. My 135/2L USM is about $1000. The ZA 135/1.8 is about $1800. Where I live, $800 is a big price difference, and 1/3 of a stop on the max. aperture is a relatively small advantage. And the Zeiss 3-d "punch" is subtle enough that there are folks out there who question its very existence.

          While it is fact that there is no 'a99' yet, I question the need for full frame, when the crop sensors in the latest releases are coming so close on resolution and noise. The a77 is weathersealed ASAIK.
          I didn't say it was needed. I said the choice simply isn't there. And you'll notice that both Nikon and Canon's pro camera bodies (D4, 1D X) are full frame. And that I've shot with both crop and full-frame. I know the advantages a full frame body can give. They are slight, but real. Among them, higher resolution, cleaner high iso performance, and the ability to achieve a thinner depth of field. For the same reasons some pros prefer to shoot medium format over full frame and APS-C over four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensors? That's why some shooters prefer full frame over APS-C.

          You only need to look at biomech's credentials to see that you can shoot professionally and shoot Sony without it being an impediment.
          You want to tell me anywhere in my post where I said, "You can't shoot professional quality images with Sony?" All I was pointing out is that the system is more limited, and is not identical to shooting the Big Two in terms of the range of equipment that's on offer.

          If you think that you are going to get better photos with a Canon/Nikon as opposed to a Sony then you need to take your head out of your *&^% and evaluate who is actually taking the frame.
          Which, of course, I entirely agree with, or did you miss the part in my first post where I said that the reasons to go with the Big Two had to do with availability, and not image quality. Maybe it's time to take your head out of your *&^%" and actually read what people write.
          Last edited by inkista; 05-21-2012, 10:51 PM.
          I shoot with a Canon 5DmkII, 50D, and S90, and Pansonic GX-7. flickr stream and equipment list

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          • #20
            Originally posted by doctorjames View Post
            Wow, what a load of bull.

            Lets start at the top.

            Why would he need TTL pocketwizards for what he is proposing? Oh and I have tilt/swivel lightstands for my sony hotshoe, and they cost exactly the same as for a standard iso, and are just as easily available if you are going to be ordering online.

            I cant find you a native 70-200 for $600, but I can find you lots of second hand 70-210mm f4 for $200 which is amazing glass for the money. As for the rest of the line up you are completely disregarding the impressive konica minolta line up pre sony, which are still pretty easy to come by.

            While it is fact that there is no 'a99' yet, I question the need for full frame, when the crop sensors in the latest releases are coming so close on resolution and noise. The a77 is weathersealed ASAIK.

            You only need to look at biomech's credentials to see that you can shoot professionally and shoot Sony without it being an impediment.

            From what the OP is looking to do, I think it is entirely appropriate that he continues to shoot sony, just as I do. Sony and Nikon trade off the moronic attitude shown by some and thats fine, I just dont subscribe to that. I

            f your living means that you must be able to get a replacement unit that day, then the availability of the replacement kit is of course important, and this is where Canon and Nikon have the edge.

            If you think that you are going to get better photos with a Canon/Nikon as opposed to a Sony then you need to take your head out of your *&^% and evaluate who is actually taking the frame.

            Sony cameras have terrible high-ISO performance. They force-apply noise reduction even to RAW images because it's so bad.
            1D4 7D 500D 70-200mm 2.8L 17-50mm 2.8 50mm 1.4 430EXII

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            • #21
              Originally posted by inkista View Post


              Which, of course, I entirely agree with, or did you miss the part in my first post where I said that the reasons to go with the Big Two had to do with availability, and not image quality. Maybe it's time to take your head out of your *&^%" and actually read what people write.
              Well lets start with the OP:


              "concentrate on building a decent portfolio and buying better lenses."

              "I would like to stick with Sony and I will eventually look to upgrade to the A77 (Is this a reasonable Idea, or is Nikon/Canon the only way to go no biased opinions please.)"

              "I should mention that at this time I have limited resources so affordability has to be a decisive factor."

              "I would like to stick with Sony"

              He doesnt mention a second pair of hands for off axis flash. Im sure you are aware of just how expensive the eTTL pocket wizards are, so that doesnt fit with affordability either.

              as for your understanding of the flash mount.... this: (and its cheaper copies)

              Amazon.com: Manfrotto 026 Swivel Lite-Tite Umbrella Adapter: Electronics

              mounts directly onto the equipment provided with both the sony and third party alpha flashes, negating the need for the hotshoe 'adaptor'. So trying to find one becomes childsplay.

              any M42 glass can work with the alpha system, by means of a (non optical) adaptor ring, so that blows the old glass argument out of the water, and highlights your ignorance of the alpha system.

              My point was that for what he/she wants to acheive (initially) within the restrictions he/she has applied there is no need to switch manufacturers.

              If he/she had 5000 set aside for setup costs then yes, moving to canon or nikon might be appropriate, but with minimal funds I think this and pocket wizards are out of the question.
              Sony Alpha 77 and 100 with a variety of lenses
              Lightroom 4 /Photoshop CS5

              My Flickr
              500px

              Comment


              • #22
                I can confirm that the ISO perfomance isn't great on my Sony's - however, saying that I shoot APS-C, no obviously the ISO on a full frame Canon/Nikon will be better, but so will it be on a full frame Sony. Further, each step up / new release on the Sony's do have significantly improved ISO. I noticed a huge difference just between my a200 and a580
                Art: www.jamieorourke.co.uk
                Work: www.jamieorourkephotography.co.uk
                Sony a200 Sony a580, Canon 500D, Canon 550D, Canon 600D, Canon 600D

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by doctorjames View Post
                  He doesnt mention a second pair of hands for off axis flash. Im sure you are aware of just how expensive the eTTL pocket wizards are, so that doesnt fit with affordability either.
                  Phottix Odins. Pixel Kings. Oh. Wait. No Sony/Minolta versions of those, either. Well, not until the damn Kings fix their firmware for Sony.

                  as for your understanding of the flash mount.... this: (and its cheaper copies)

                  Amazon.com: Manfrotto 026 Swivel Lite-Tite Umbrella Adapter: Electronics
                  Which you will note you still have to buy the Sony/Minolta (or iso shoe) adapter for, as a separate piece. Most of the ripoffs come with the iso shoe adapter, so you don't have to add on or pay for another piece.

                  Midwest Photo Exchange LumoPro LP679 Umbrella Swivel

                  any M42 glass can work with the alpha system, by means of a (non optical) adaptor ring, so that blows the old glass argument out of the water, and highlights your ignorance of the alpha system.
                  Ok. I forgot that M42 can be used on Alpha, but I don't think it "blows the old glass argument of the water" even if it does highlight my ignorance of the Sony system. Every M42 lens you can adapt to Sony can be adapted to Canon the same way. And in addition, you can also adapt Leica-R, Nikon F, Contax/Yashica, Olympus OM, and Pentax K lenses to Canon EOS the exact same way: with a simple adapter ring, no glass. You can't adapt any of those other five mounts to Sony Alpha without replacing the lens's mount. So "having lots of M42" choices, in my mind, gets trumped by having lots of glas from six different manual focus mounts--including M42--if you shoot Canon.

                  My point was that for what he/she wants to acheive (initially) within the restrictions he/she has applied there is no need to switch manufacturers.
                  True. I agree completely. Where I'm making the point is that after that initial use, once the OP has (hopefully) established them as a professional, and they have more money to spend, the expansion options could be more limited on the Sony side of the fence than on the Canon/Nikon. The Sony system is terrific, and all the camera systems fulfill the basic photographer's needs, but when you start getting into the more advanced/pro stuff, where a small edge can mean the difference between having the image that everyone wants, or the "also ran" can be half a second or three feet in placement, then maybe having one of those expansion advantages will be worth the cost.

                  The Big Two offer you some choices you simply can't find on the Sony side.

                  And, btw, the argument to make when someone points out that Sony's high iso performance is behind the Big Two is that yeah, it is, but the low iso performance kicks Canon's ass, and the dynamic range of the Sony Alphas is still top of the heap. There's a reason Nikon and Pentax use the Sony sensors. But to my mind Sony is the perfect landscape system, especially when they still offered the A900 and A850. But for event shooting, it may not be the best fit as a system, especially for a pro.

                  If he/she had 5000 set aside for setup costs then yes, moving to canon or nikon might be appropriate, but with minimal funds I think this and pocket wizards are out of the question.
                  I'm not saying "move to Canikon all pro gear and TTL PWs, right now!" I'm saying that Sony isn't exactly equivalent to Canon or Nikon as a system. I honestly don't care what system the OP wants to shoot, as long as they're happy and successful at what they want to do. But they were asking for reasons as to why moving to one of the Big Two might be a good idea. To me, a bigger equipment pool that's easier to find with more midrange price choices and more expansion choices is it.

                  And setting up with the same basic system the OP has now: a crop body and basic lens-wise on the Canikon side of the fence isn't going to cost nearly 5000, and that system can then be built upon if the need for things like TTL radio flash triggers arises. The thing is, even if you do have 5000, you simply can't get TTL radio flash triggers on the Sony/Minolta side (that work) right now. This is just my opinion, but better to have a choice and not need it, than need it and not have the choice. But more choices does not mean "the one and only way" and I really really resent that you are saying that's what I must be thinking/implying/ordering someone to do. I'm just pointing out differences that were requested by the OP.

                  Sticking with Sony is obviously the easy and low-cost path. I'm simply pointing out a few ways that a professional photographer might be hampered by that decision years down the road when they want to expand their equipment capabilities. If you are going to make a system switch, it's probably better to do it before you sink 5000 into it than after, from a monetary point of view.
                  Last edited by inkista; 05-02-2012, 03:27 AM.
                  I shoot with a Canon 5DmkII, 50D, and S90, and Pansonic GX-7. flickr stream and equipment list

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by inkista View Post

                    Which you will note you still have to buy the Sony/Minolta (or iso shoe) adapter for, as a separate piece. Most of the ripoffs come with the iso shoe adapter, so you don't have to add on or pay for another piece.


                    Sticking with Sony is obviously the easy and low-cost path. I'm simply pointing out a few ways that a professional photographer might be hampered by that decision years down the road when they want to expand their equipment capabilities. If you are going to make a system switch, it's probably better to do it before you sink 5000 into it than after, from a monetary point of view.
                    I dont want this to get too drawn out (again). But you dont need a hotshoe adaptor, certainly not if you buy a sony flash, as their flash comes with an adaptor plate/stand included that allows the flash to mount directly onto the light stand tilt/swivel. My YNs did too.

                    I do however completely agree that sinking 5000 into a system that ultimately you are going to change doesnt make any sense, because you wont see half of it back once you are done selling.
                    Sony Alpha 77 and 100 with a variety of lenses
                    Lightroom 4 /Photoshop CS5

                    My Flickr
                    500px

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      At most events you will need to use soft light. Soft light will give you an ability to take a wide range of photographs and know that you will reduce the amount of visible shadows that display in your complete photographs. Direct and harsh light, as a contrast, will only create deep dark shadows and will take away from the finished product of your photograph.

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                      • #26
                        Thanks for all the replies.

                        I have really two options for what/how I see my career developing. as I attend each red carpet event I take a good look at pro equipment and the conditions they work in.

                        Alot of the time they are stuffed into tight pens so off camera flash is simply not an option - rain can be an issue at times.

                        My Options Are
                        1) Stick with Sony, whilst I'm not heavily invested in that system at the moment my immediate requirements are Flashes and Faster Glass 24-70mm f2.8 (not the big long lenses) plus by eventually upgrading to an A77etc I will always have my original spare body wich with a prime could be an advantage.

                        2) Go to Nikon i.e. the D7000 or its potential upgrade - this upgrade is possibly the biggest off put for Nikon as only rumors are being discussed and the idea of buying a 900 body only to have a new improved version come out soon after....!!!

                        many thoughts have and will go into this.

                        Best Wishes

                        Duncan

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                        • #27
                          I guess what you really need to decide on is what you want in the short, medium and long term.

                          If this is just about learning your trade, its not going to make a huge amount of difference which system you use, and you shouldnt need to invest huge amount of money for learnings sake.

                          If this is about turning out professional quality shots on a day in day out basis, and making your living out of it, then significant investment is going to be required, and it would really make sense to choose a system which is probably going to cover all your requirements.

                          If the cost of a 900 body is worrying you, then im guessing its the former of the two options, and in which case I would splash on a a77 with 16-50mm f2.8, a f58am sony flash, and if you have the money the 70-200G f2.8, but then I would because aside from the 70-200G thats what I have.

                          It will serve you well as you learn.

                          However, the same could be said about the canon/nikon equivalent, although I think that you get more bang for your buck with sony at this level.

                          Id suggest you shortlist what you want to do/achieve and then shortlist kit, because if you are looking for the latter of the two options, its going to cost you a packet and you may do no better than with what you have if you dont have the technique/skill.
                          Sony Alpha 77 and 100 with a variety of lenses
                          Lightroom 4 /Photoshop CS5

                          My Flickr
                          500px

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Hi DoctorJames

                            As a Sony shooter do you consider Sony to be a Long term sustainable system, there is of course more than just rumors of an A99 to compete with the 5D or D800 as a mid level pro camera, Sony have all but confirmed its development with the release being Late this year/early next with the only question being what specs it will have.

                            One of the reasons I am looking at getting a new camera is the need for weather Sealing. which of course the Sony has as do the Nikon D7000 and Canon 7D

                            I can understand the need for a Multi-thousand pound full frame camera if shooting high Quality studio shoots/weddings/fashion but do I really need that kind of camera if I'm primarily focusing on celeb red carpet with magazine style images Will the A77 not cover that adequately.

                            I do like the A77 and there is something about the rebellious side of not shooting with Canon/Nikon that appeals.

                            Best Wishes

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                            • #29
                              Been there, done that

                              I worked for Getty Images in LA for 3 years before I got out of THAT business.
                              One, as others have mentioned, you're going to need to get credentialed. Not sure how you go about doing that if you're not working for an agency.
                              People that do the credentialing want photographers that have outlets to get photos published for their event. IE Getty, AP, Reuters, Wireimage, Filmmagic and some others.

                              Two, there's really no money in it. Wireimage damaged the industry when they started giving away photos for free for exclusivity of covering an event. IE Radio Music Awards, AMA's, etc.

                              The web presence over the last 10 years has grown into the 800lb gorilla leaving print in the dust. You used to get paid really well for a shot ran in People, that number has dropped significantly and for a web shot, it's a lot less.

                              Speaking from experience, the business of entertainment photography is not what it used to be and it's not glamorous at all.

                              But, if that is your dream and what you aspire to do, go for it and best of luck!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hi Chuckdee

                                Thanks for your input.
                                I can now confirm that I am being supported by an agency, by which I mean they send me daily emails re: celeb events in London and I FTP my images to them, I get 60% of sales.

                                They are called Press2000 not one of the major ones but the emails are a major bonus so I'm happy to see how it develops.....I've only been with them since seeing them on the Alamy News feed last Thursday.

                                As far as Accreditation goes I've been advised to contact the British Press Photographers Association which is one of the Accredited gatekeepers, but they charge 150 (the cost of membership but without benefits) I've heard the actual pass is only 15 so I'll probably give it a little while.

                                I find the biggest bonus of a press pass seems to be that at premieres and the like there is a dedicated press pen in front of which the celebs are guaranteed to pose for the mag style shots i.e. face on.
                                There are occasionally events that that require a press pass to gain entry but i've got shots of the celebs arriving mostly.

                                I will get accreditation but I've got other things to spend money on at the mo like better glass, a weathersealed body wouldn't go amiss either.

                                I'm not really looking for the Glamour, Just was over on the west coast of America for work recently (driving Job) and I enjoyed looking out for stuff to shoot, Police crime scenes, Filming and the like whilst I was driving around.
                                That Job ended cause of downsizing and I decided that I wanted to be in charge of my own destiny So when I returned I upgraded my camera to a beginner level DSLR due to price and looked at ways of making money with it.
                                yeah your probably right that the price of images has dropped but its a hell of alot easier to sell a picture of a celeb than selling landscapes and cheaper too. travel to London as opposed to remote parts of scotland and the like.

                                Best Wishes

                                Duncan
                                Flickr: Duncan Penfold Photography's Photostream

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