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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by veritasimagery View Post
    If a large segment of a client base decides that they can perform the same service, and they leave the client base, then that base decreases. As more people grab cameras and do what it used to take a "professional" to do, then the supply increases and the demand decreases. Only if you create more clients will the demand not decrease. It's simple math.
    It's only simple math if you over-simplify the issue.

    As I just stated, increased accessibility creates a larger client base.

    You're also making inaccurate assumptions that just because someone is a photographer, they won't commission another pro. By the admission of others on this thread, as photographers we have a greater appreciation and eye for quality...

    ...an example would be our very own SusanH who despite producing great images of her daughter etc, hired the woman who is now her mentor, Stacy. I see and hear this all the time. So no, I don't agree at all with that premise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niresangwa View Post
    You're also making inaccurate assumptions that just because someone is a photographer, they won't commission another pro. By the admission of others on this thread, as photographers we have a greater appreciation and eye for quality...

    ...an example would be our very own SusanH who despite producing great images of her daughter etc, hired the woman who is now her mentor, Stacy. I see and hear this all the time. So no, I don't agree at all with that premise.
    That is true among the "professionals" in the industry. The problem is that the influx of technology and shooters has also brought with it an influx of non "professionals" that care nothing for quality, just the money. They already believe it's easy enough for them to do and are unwilling to admit their limitations. Why would they seek a professional that they already believe that they are equal to?

    Remember, the big issue here is not with the new shooter entering the business that is desiring growth, and is willing to start at the bottom and work up. Who understands their strengths and weaknesses. We are talking about the person who says "It's easy, I'll buy a fancy camera and start charging people." And the large group of people in the client base that feel the same way, but don't want to do it themselves. It is these two groups that are having a negative effect on the industry.
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  3. #73
    veritasimagery is offline I'm one of "those" people
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    Like I said, the fact that we are even having this discussion is evidence of this downward trend. And it's not just on this forum, but across the internet and industry.

    And You Call Yourself a Professional? Photofocus

    Are you really a pro photographer? | Digital Photo Buzz

    We aren't talking about one or two "paranoid" professionals on this forum, but the entire industry is taking notice.
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  4. #74
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    The truth of statement really is predicated on the assumption that only supply increases and not demand, and that patently is not the case.
    I disagree, I believe that is exactly what is happening. The supply of gear available to the public that will take a good photo is increasing. Therefore, the demand to hire a "professional" to do the work for you is indeed decreasing - as is evident all around us and the general theme of this discussion!

    The increased accessibility of services increases participation, assuages the detriment you assume in your statement.
    Read that as "sausages" :P

    Again, I feel like people are still missing the point, what you as a photographer think of the value of your work, or the overall standard of work is irrelevant. All that matters is what the market entity perceives the value to be.
    To be honest, I think we all agree on that, I certainly do. I think we're all just saying it a different way. Yes the market does dictate the price range - but that's the problem we're talking about, it should affect the price it shouldn't dictate it. Purely and simply because the consumer does not know enough about the product to decide the price. If I told you that your photography was worth $10 an hour and spread that word and everyone decided that your photography was worth $10 an hour - does that make it true? Of course not, because, as photographers, we know there are many many hidden costs involved. One of the bit debates defending wedding photographers who "only shoot for 6 hours".

    The industry, to a large degree, needs to dictate the price based on the insider knowledge it has. And again, this is the problem, because the people charging very low fees - as we know - DON'T understand the costs involved running a sustainable business. Because the consumer is becoming the service provider, the availability of that knowledge is getting lost and leading to massive undercuts. Soon enough, these newcomers shooting for free or at a silly rate (I saw one today) - they go out of business or pack it in. And they generally don't care, because they weren't serious about it in the first place. And then someone comes to take their place.

    It's true, they come and then they go - why should we worry? Well because they might go, but there is constantly a pool of this type of person. So while the person has gone back to stacking shelves, the threat/problem remains.


    As I just stated, increased accessibility creates a larger client base.
    Of course it doesn't. If I had access to plumber gear, I wouldn't hire a plumber. If I had access to car gear, I wouldn't hire a mechanic. If I had access to an entry level DSLR...... With increased accessibility comes erosion of the client base as everyone can do it for themselves.

    You're also making inaccurate assumptions that just because someone is a photographer, they won't commission another pro. By the admission of others on this thread, as photographers we have a greater appreciation and eye for quality...
    They generally only hire another photographer when they HAVE to. I wouldn't hire someone else to shoot some products for me or a model. But I would to shoot my own wedding or have a portrait session done, because I physically couldn't do it myself. As I mentioned, I shot a prom on the weekend, took home about 700. Would I have asked someone else to do it and take the money/majority? No chance.
    Last edited by Biomech; 05-15-2012 at 08:52 PM.
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by veritasimagery View Post
    Like I said, the fact that we are even having this discussion is evidence of this downward trend. And it's not just on this forum, but across the internet and industry.
    ...and who is denying there's a trend? This has been discussed ad nauseum for years.

    I'm trying, (obviously in vain) to move the discussion past people feeling sorry for themselves and to move onto other more useful topics on this subject such as dealing with a new and irreversible reality.

    It's a little disappointing that despite 8 pages of discussion, it's no further forward than still repeating the same old things that no one is disputing, and furthermore are irreparable.. but hey, keep it going if all you care about is defending your chosen position.

    For some of us, this isn't just a neat little intellectual debate, it's a fundamental issue of our livelihoods, and I'm nowhere near as angry or negative about it as you are... am I missing something or are you?

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by veritasimagery View Post
    That's the thing. She didn't investigate. She just heard a price, and based upon a perceived value of the service, felt that the price was too high. We have been conditioned to this way of thinking. How many stores claim "Lowest prices, guaranteed"? How many say "Hey our prices may not be the lowest, but they're better quality"?
    Well then, it sounds like the client IS an idiot. All I can say about your ideas of "conditioning": it seems like you have an extremely low opinion about your apparently brain-washed clientele.

    Quote Originally Posted by veritasimagery View Post
    If a large segment of a client base decides that they can perform the same service, and they leave the client base, then that base decreases. As more people grab cameras and do what it used to take a "professional" to do, then the supply increases and the demand decreases. Only if you create more clients will the demand not decrease. It's simple math.
    Actually, this logic is horribly wrong. It is only correct if a large percentage of the population is photographers. Let me illustrate your “simple math” for you:
    According to the US BLS, there were 139,500 photographers in 2010. The US population was 310,000,000. We’ll keep things simple and say that leaves a clientele of 309,860,500…
    Say you QUADRUPLED the amount of photographers to 560,000. You reduce your clientele by 0.0018%….which is completely insignificant.

    I think the gear accessibility and ease of entry into the business has really just meshed out the bottom tier, low-end part of the field. I honestly don't believe that the people that are buying pictures from newb photogs for $25 a session are the same clients that are looking for high-quality, beautiful portraits of their family or whatever else. I mean, people are not complete idiots. They can't expect to get $300 results from the local photography student charging $25, but that's what they can AFFORD. With the flood of new photographers, they've made decent photography (better than what the average could do with a P&S, hopefully) cheap and accessible to people whom it otherwise might not have been an option. So many people consider nice photographs a luxury, and not something they're ready to spend lots of money on. Along comes the local MWAC and then it all becomes a possibility. I don't see how these newbs are degrading the field that you professionals are a part of--it's more like they're creating a field of their own.
    Last edited by MattJohnRobinson; 05-15-2012 at 09:19 PM.

  7. #77
    veritasimagery is offline I'm one of "those" people
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niresangwa View Post
    ...and who is denying there's a trend? This has been discussed ad nauseum for years.
    Umm...you are.

    "As I just stated, increased accessibility creates a larger client base."

    "The increased accessibility of services increases participation."


    You continue to argue that there has been an increase in demand, not a decrease.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomech View Post
    Read that as "sausages" :P
    Sausage sandwich with HP sauce and a cup of tea, stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomech View Post
    The industry, to a large degree, needs to dictate the price based on the insider knowledge it has.
    Sure it would be lovely, but it's a fairy tale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomech View Post
    It's true, they come and then they go - why should we worry? Well because they might go, but there is constantly a pool of this type of person. So while the person has gone back to stacking shelves, the threat/problem remains.
    So who cares? The only people they're competing against are themselves. This is all just a convenient argument ginned up by disgruntled vets. You make your living doing this the same as I do Jamie, and you know for a fact that these people are not our competition.

    It would be just as fatuous for me to say that photobooths are killing my business as a wedding photographer.

    Again, the only thing you can go back to is that it's impinging upon the perception of the client-base as to the worth of photography, and even if that is true, why are their perceptions any less important than ours? Sure we have knowledge. They have the money.

    Money talks, Pride walks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomech View Post
    Of course it doesn't. If I had access to plumber gear, I wouldn't hire a plumber. If I had access to car gear, I wouldn't hire a mechanic. If I had access to an entry level DSLR...... With increased accessibility comes erosion of the client base as everyone can do it for themselves.
    No you wouldn't. If it was something small you might do it, but you wouldn't re-wire your house or change your head-gasket.

    There's always a sliding scale which I recognise, I only brought it up because it certainly shouldn't be introduced as an absolute to disguise a weak argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niresangwa View Post

    Ultimately there is a point where the two off-set and the market stabilizes...Now, I'm not saying there's an element to what you said, but it's precisely that, just one part of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by veritasimagery View Post
    Umm...you are.

    "As I just stated, increased accessibility creates a larger client base."

    "The increased accessibility of services increases participation."
    How about you either read what I wrote, or don't use selective quotation to misrepresent me? Either works. Preferably both.

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    slowride is offline dPS Forum Member
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    this is very good reading.Im no pro, im not going to try to be. but i do try to do the best i can, i take pictures where a pole might be coming out of a head and i think its funny, and if someone wants one i give it to them, my money my time i have had a few ask me to take pictures of there family and i will for free. i really like this site and have learn't alot from the people in here, and i thank you

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