Need feedback on best dslr on "budget"

[southernbelle]

Hi,

I am thinking of switching to a dslr from a point and shoot. Because I have never used a dslr, I would like to find one that is pretty fool proof and semi- affordable. I can't afford to buy lot of expensive lenses right now, so I would like to start with a camera that has a descent lense on it when it is purchased. I've heard that pentax, canon, and nikon are the brands to go with, but would LOVE any feedback on this.

Also, I am planning on purchasing Photoshop CS3. Is that the best editing software for about the 600-700 dollar range?

Thanks!!!

Sarah

[steinr98]

The Canon dRebel-450D, l is just out and quite impressive. I'm not sure what price range it will be in however with the image stablized 18-55 it should be a winner!! I have the XTi which is also a good camera. The new Rebel or 450D is a 12 megapixel camera, with live view and a 3" back screen. The new Rebel will be out in April- If you don't want to wait go for the XTi- BUT I'd wait!! NOW- If you want to spend 600-700 bucks on software, put the money in the camera- seriously!!! You can purchase PhotoShop Elements 6 for about $79 and there are only a coulple of features that it doesn't have compared to Photoshop. More and more art directors are using Elements as it will do everything one needs to do. We have a camera club of 850 people, I teach some of the classes- only the richer members have Photoshop. We have classes every week using Elements and the teachers are usually the photoshop people and they then show how to get around the missing items. If you take a good picture - you don't have to spend $$$ to try and fix it. To say you have PhotoShop will not make you a better photographer. Go for the camera!!!!!!

[zapp]

Hi,

I am thinking of switching to a dslr from a point and shoot. Because I have never used a dslr, I would like to find one that is pretty fool proof and semi- affordable. I can't afford to buy lot of expensive lenses right now, so I would like to start with a camera that has a descent lense on it when it is purchased. I've heard that pentax, canon, and nikon are the brands to go with, but would LOVE any feedback on this.

Also, I am planning on purchasing Photoshop CS3. Is that the best editing software for about the 600-700 dollar range?

Thanks!!!

Sarah

I got my Olympus e500 and 2 decent lenses for $600 and I use Corel PaintshopPro X2 ... including the extra lenses I have purchased (35 mm, and the macro filters for the 58mm and the 52mm size, and a few other goodies) I still have less than $1000.00 camera and software combined .... also I have a Kodak easy-share 6490 that is between the dslr and point/shoot cameras and I found some add on lenses for it as well (a macro and a telephoto lens) ... all together this setup is about $500 ..... Photoshop maybe be a great program but I am a poor-man and can't see paying more for software than I did for my cameras LOL and PaintShop does everything I need it to do so far
just my 2 cents

[Doug Pardee]

I am thinking of switching to a dslr from a point and shoot. Because I have never used a dslr, I would like to find one that is pretty fool proof and semi- affordable.

I'm curious why you're looking to switch to a DSLR. A DSLR requires the photographer to have put in the time and effort to learn how to use it well in order to get results even as good as a digicam will deliver. In skilled hands a DSLR can do many things that a digicam can't, but that's because it primarily relies on human judgment rather than computer automation.

"Fool proof" is about the exact opposite of what a DSLR is.

[southernbelle]

By fool proof I mean one that isn't hard to learn. I agree with all of the comments about photoshop. If I can get a good editing software for under 100 I could put the $ into getting a better camera. I want to challenge myself...thats why i wnt a Dslr...fool proof was not the right phrase, i guess :)

If I were to stay with point and shoot, are there any good suggestions??? I want something with good image stabilization. Thanks for y'alls comments so far!!

[inkista]

Yeah, the problem here is that "easy to learn" is also not part of an SLR's strengths. :) Also the whole "can't afford to buy expensive lenses" thing means you're seriously cutting yourself off from one of the most important features of a dSLR: the ability to use special purpose lenses. You can get by with the kit and a 50mm f/1.8 lens for a year or two, but after that, you're going to want more (like, say stabilization). Realistically, you're looking at spending at least as much on equipment and lenses as you do on the camera body, if not much more.

Wanting to challenge yourself is good, but none of the reasons you're stating are SLR strengths. But, if you're serious about leaping to an SLR, I'd suggest looking at the Nikon D40, or the Canon Rebel XTi--they're in the $500 range. Nikon and Canon are going to give you the most possible upgrade paths with their mount systems. The other makes, while offering great cameras, aren't on par yet with their lens lineups.

If you want a point and shoot with full manual control and image stabilization, I'd recommend the Canon G9 ($450) or, if you want to spend a bit less, the Canon A650IS ($300). They have a slightly larger sensor and the ability to set the aperture & shutter speed directly. They're big and chunky, but offer a lot more control over picture taking than most p&s cameras.

As for Photoshop--you may want to think about the Gimp (http://www.gimp.org/), instead. It's free. And it can do a lot of the same things Photoshop can do. It has Curves. It has Layers. Channels. The big toys. It's not as good at professional press stuff as Photoshop, but you're probably never going to miss those features or 16/32-bit capability. :)

[southernbelle]

Thanks! That helps a lot!!

[glyphon]

I just picked up an Olympus E-510 last week, and I love it. It didn't take me very long to get the basics down. Compared to its closest competitors (d40 & xti), it doesn't have the same quantity of available lenses as it uses a relatively new mount. But the lineup is growing. and the kit lenses are supposedly some of the best lenses available in any kit, so they make a great starting point.

the E-510 also has inbody IS, so every lens you attach to it will have IS. It also has a live view lcd, which can be extremely useful in the right situations (awkward angles, astrophotography, etc...). The kit with 2 lenses can be had on amazon for $650.

The other camera that i was seriously considering was the pentax k100d. it has a decent catalogue of lenses it will accept, as well as inbody IS. and can be had with 1 lens for around the same price.

last, and least importantly, is the MP of the 2 cameras. The E-510 is a 10MP, and the K100d is a 6MP, but don't let that dissuade you. 6MP is more than sufficent for just about any size print you'd want to do, except for posters. the only real benifit that larger MP images offer is the ability to have more cropping flexibility, meaning the image size after cropping will be larger, allowing for larger prints.

if you are looking to buy a few months out, consider the K100's replacement, the just announced K200. Not sure of the pricing on it. also the sony alpha line shouldn't be overlooked, notably the a100, a200, and a700. and then the obvious canon xt/xti/xsi, and the nikon d40.

tons of choices to mull over. just do the research, and try to figure out which one best suits your needs/wants, and fits your budget.

[southernbelle]

Thanks...I am going to look into all of those.:)

[glyphon]

oh, and IMO, Photoshop CS3 is by far the best software for image editing. But it is also very expensive, and would likely be overkill for your needs, unless you are are graphic designer and need the advanced functionality that isn't in Lightroom or Photoshop Elements.

i haven't used lightroom or photoshop elements, but i've heard good things about them. and they have the benefit being much less expensive, $300 or $99, respectively.

and unless you are very profient with computers, i'd stay away from GIMP. it is a great program and its free, and it can do most anything that Photoshop can do, but getting it installed is less than userfriendly, and the interface is, IMO, not very intuitive and hard to use. but that point might be because i'm so used to the photoshop interface.

[southernbelle]

Yeah...I just downloaded macports to my comp, but I cant figure where to go from there to download GIMP. I think I'll stick to photoshop:)

[wulf]

and unless you are very profient with computers, i'd stay away from GIMP. it is a great program and its free, and it can do most anything that Photoshop can do, but getting it installed is less than userfriendly, and the interface is, IMO, not very intuitive and hard to use. but that point might be because i'm so used to the photoshop interface.
I would respectfully disagree with that. Any powerful image editing tool is going to take some time to get used and the more control the user has over the end result, the more confusing it will seem at first. I used Photoshop a little before I started on The Gimp (granted it was over a decade ago) and have stuck with the latter. I am sure a large part of that was that I couldn't afford Photoshop so could only play with it in breaktimes at work whereas I could put The Gimp on my machine at home and spend the extra couple of hours needed to start becoming familiar with the tools.

I think The Gimp would be a great solution because that frees up a lot more money to put towards a camera, lenses and other gear (although, personally, I think it would be best not to spend it all at once). For Southernbelle, take a look at Wilber Loves Apple (http://www.wilber-loves-apple.org/) which is where I got the copy of The Gimp that I presently use on my Mac.

Wulf

[glyphon]

GIMP might be slightly easier to install on a Mac. I've never tried. Getting it installed on a PC, while not hard per se, it wasn't intuitive. searching for a correct "build", finding all of the various programs that have to be installed along with it, just so that it will run.

And I did say that the reason I didn't like the GIMP interface was because I'm very used to the Photoshop interface. I started using Photoshop back in school in '95 in the computer labs, and I've been using it professionally since '99. That's a lot of years of habits to try and relearn :)

GIMP does kick the snot out of Photoshop in terms of pricing though. You just can't beat free.

[KodiakStar]

A second vote for Olympus E-510. All my research points toward the best kit lenses on the market.

This camera will be with me for a while, and I don't plan on expanding much beyond a macro and possibly a tele lens. Also take some time to research the ones in your price range, benefits, trade offs etc, and then go into a store and try each one out. Hold it in your hands, pay with it, etc.

I was making up my mind between the E-510, d40, d40x, and d80. From reviews I wanted to go with the E-510, but when I held it in my hands, I knew it was a perfect match.

[wulf]

GIMP might be slightly easier to install on a Mac. I've never tried. Getting it installed on a PC, while not hard per se, it wasn't intuitive. searching for a correct "build", finding all of the various programs that have to be installed along with it, just so that it will run.
It should be as easy to install on Windows as any other program - I have found the version from Gimp for Windows (http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/) to be painless.

That said, I don't think it has much to offer if you already have a full version of Photoshop and years of experience. On the other hand, I can't think of any reasons why I would choose to pay for Photoshop rather than use the Gimp if I was starting out and the price difference would buy a good chunk of camera gear!

Wulf

[zapp]

A second vote for Olympus E-510. All my research points toward the best kit lenses on the market.

This camera will be with me for a while, and I don't plan on expanding much beyond a macro and possibly a tele lens. Also take some time to research the ones in your price range, benefits, trade offs etc, and then go into a store and try each one out. Hold it in your hands, pay with it, etc.

I was making up my mind between the E-510, d40, d40x, and d80. From reviews I wanted to go with the E-510, but when I held it in my hands, I knew it was a perfect match.

I do like my e500 but I am sure my next one will be the 510 or whatever the upgrade from there is .... other than the availability of lenses to choose from I'm not sure why everyone seems so "anti-Oly" LOL .... most of the problems I have with mine I would have with any camera .... operator error or as my granddad used to say "loose nut behind the wheel" :)

[KodiakStar]

I do like my e500 but I am sure my next one will be the 510 or whatever the upgrade from there is .... other than the availability of lenses to choose from I'm not sure why everyone seems so "anti-Oly" LOL .... most of the problems I have with mine I would have with any camera .... operator error or as my granddad used to say "loose nut behind the wheel" :)

I couldn't agree more fully. I would rather take the time and effort to learn to use the camera to take amazing shots, then be concerned with the next more expensive lens to buy. I think it is the perfect "Hobby" camera (for me). I noticed some good price breaks on the 500, but the Image Stabilization is a must for me after using the SP-500uz which did not have it. I think that through time I will be worthy to be behind the lens!

The fact that the d40(x) did not have IS was another factor. I just can't hold the darn thing that steady sometimes!

(Plus, who cares what all the "popular" people are doing!)
(Great read on the E-510: Here (http://www.nwpphotoforum.com/ubbthreads/information/php/2007_Reviews/Isaac/Oly510Review.php)

[mattdm]

Southernbelle, what's your on-budget budget? If you can stretch it to about $700, for the next week (until the rebate offer ends at the end of the month, and also while they're still in stock) the Pentax K10D is one of the best possible values you'll find -- a semi-pro level camera at an entry-level price.

It will be a little more intimidating than the entry-level models because there's a lot more buttons, switches, and dials, but in the medium and long term this actually makes the camera easier to learn and use because everything you need is at your fingertips rather than hidden in a menu.

Alternately, the K100D Super is also priced at an incredibly competitive point, and buying that may give you room to purchase external flash (from Sigma, for the best value) or a second lens.


And finally, while I love the Gimp, Photoshop is far ahead in features. For example, it has nothing like the shadow/highlight tool.

[inkista]

Yeah...I just downloaded macports to my comp, but I cant figure where to go from there to download GIMP. I think I'll stick to photoshop:)
I'm on a Mac, too (MacBook), and I found it far easier to just grab Ubuntu (http://www.simplehelp.net/2007/11/01/how-to-install-ubuntu-710-gutsy-gibbon-in-parallels-desktop-for-os-x/) (7.04 and then let it upgrade itself to 7.10) and load it into Parallels than to run Gimp directly in OSX, but I completely understand if that's not the way you'd want to go :).

But if you want to run the Gimp, you don't need to grab source and compile ala macports. I'd go through the X11-and-binary-installer sequence on this page (http://wilber-loves-apple.org/pages/download.html) instead.

As strange as it may sound, I found there were things I wanted to do that could only be done in the Gimp, such as using Mathmap to accomplish the Droste effect.

[Pawaniki]

I'm almost there too -- I have been researching for about 4 months and have held the e510 and love the reviews I have seen. The kit lenses are considered to be outstanding. Thanks everyone for the input. I think I am quite sold on the Olympus. Should have it within the month.

[mattdm]

I do like my e500 but I am sure my next one will be the 510 or whatever the upgrade from there is .... other than the availability of lenses to choose from I'm not sure why everyone seems so "anti-Oly" LOL .... most of the problems I have with mine I would have with any camera .... operator error or as my granddad used to say "loose nut behind the wheel" :)

The main concern with Olympus's dSLRs is the sensor size, which is about half the size (area) of that in most dSLRs (let alone full-frame, which is double yet again). This directly leads to three problems: 1) increased noise, especially at high ISOs, 2) one stop more depth of field at a given aperture, and 3) dim, "tunnel-vision" viewfinders.

The top-of-the-line E3 model has a magnifying viewfinder which addresses problem #3, and #2 isn't really a problem per se, and #1 I'm confident will be a decreasing problem over time. But these are issues with the current lineup.

[glyphon]

there is no tunnel vision through the viewfinder, to me it is comparable to the viewfinder on my fujica and minolta film slrs. the e-510 (and presumably the 410 as well) has an optional 1.2x magnifying viewfinder, which is higher magnification than than the 1.15x standard on the e-3. i find the noise at 1600 to more than acceptable. the below images are straight from the camera. no post. also, adjusting the noise filter and sharpening would reduce the noise some. i just left those settings at the levels i typically shoot with. noise ninja/neat image would clean up the images very nicely.

the evolt series isn't perfect, no camera is. it does have its issues, like every camera, but they are largely overstated, and the kit lenses are very good. all in all, imo, one of the best entry level slrs available, especially for its price.

Exposure: 1 sec (1)
Aperture: f/3.5
Focal Length: 14 mm
ISO Speed: 1600
Noise Filter: Low
Sharpening: +1
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdelamater99/2247166965/" title="P2060545 by jdelamater99, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2254/2247166965_d4b567b3e8.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="P2060545" /></a>

detail
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdelamater99/2275988855/" title="P2060545_detail by jdelamater99, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2141/2275988855_3f08e979a4_o.jpg" width="471" height="353" alt="P2060545_detail" /></a>

[mattdm]

there is no tunnel vision through the viewfinder, to me it is comparable to the viewfinder on my fujica and minolta film slrs. the e-510 (and presumably the 410 as well) has an optional 1.2x magnifying viewfinder, which is higher magnification than than the 1.15x standard on the e-3.

If it works for you, great. Objectively, it is smaller and darker than the viewfinders in most of the competition. I haven't tried the magnifying viewfinder, but often those have the tradeoff of reducing the eyepoint. (Also, you can get such magnifiers for other cameras which start with a bigger viewfinder, so...)

I'm not trying to knock your purchase — I just wanted to fill some of the legitimate criticism people have of this system relative to the competition.

i find the noise at 1600 to more than acceptable. the below images are straight from the camera. no post. also, adjusting the noise filter and sharpening would reduce the noise some. i just left those settings at the levels i typically shoot with. noise ninja/neat image would clean up the images very nicely.

Reducing noise comes at the expense of detail. Again, I'm glad you're happy with what you've got, but compared to the competition it's objectively not as good.

Of course, Olympus does have some things they do better, like the only really effective dust-removal system, at least one of the best sensor-shift stabilization mechanisms, and they give you really good customization options (where most entry-level cameras skimp out).

[velvet4269]

I made the switch from a point & shoot to a DSLR, and went with an Olympus e500 (bought mine in June of 2007, pre-e510). I had the opportunity to play with the model down from mine (the e300) and was able to pretty much pick it straight up and use it. Everything I needed to access (WB, EV, Aperture changes) was right there at my finger tips; I didn't have to go thru a clunky menu to find them. As well, it felt right in my hands.

The only times I've lamented my decesion to go with an Olympus, is when I try to find accessories or additional lenses - they're hard to find (but they do exist!) and the lenses are expensive as all get up; but the quality you get ... well, YMMV, but I've been happy :)

[RexK_Cozumel]

If you are planning on getting lenses in the future and want to go with a safe bet as far as accessories and lenses then go with a Nikon or Cannon. If you are looking for a good deal on the camera but dont really care about your lens/accessories selection then go with a olympus/pentax/sony all of the cameras are pretty competitive in price but nikon and cannon dont offer as many features as the others because they know that people will buy them for the wide selection of lenses/accessories. Anyways a lot of the features that olympus/pentax/sony offer in their camera bodies is really junk anyways just throws it in to help sell the camera. I think the only really good thing is the sensor shift IS. Live view is really overrated and is only really helpful if you have a display that can shift otherwise it just drains batteries and if you are too lazy to look thru the viewfinder then you will probabbly be too lazy to learn how to adjust all the camera settings so why get a SLR at all? There are only a couple cases where I would want live view but those are few and far between. And the self cleaning sensor is really not very effective you will still get sensor dust.

Get the camera that feels best in your hands. That is really the only important thing.

As for Photoshop. I have Photoshop lightroom, elements 5, and CS3 and I have used gimpshop before as well. As far as editing power goes CS3 blows all the others out of the water. Gimpshop was similar to CS3 as far as layout but they renamed alot of the tools and was missing a lot of different tools that CS3 had so I got rid of it. Light room and elements are nice for organizing and very basic editing which will probabbly take care of about 60% of your photos but for any real editing I use CS3

[glyphon]

within a few years, liveview will be on most if not all cameras, especially now that Canon added it to the XSi (450d). the rest of the cameras will add it to "keep up".

that said, liveview is invaluable for astrophotography. you can pick a point, and do a 10x digital zoom in liveview to verify/set a very sharp focus. it can also be helpful when photographing at weird angles. that said, liveview is a tool, and its really only useful if you know the situations in which to use it.

[RexK_Cozumel]

I realize that live view has its uses. I am just saying that it should not be a major selling point. It is much more important that the camera feels right in your hands and the controls and menu's make sense to you.

Both of Nikon's new DSLRs have live view as well but if I have a choice between a camera with live view or better glass it would be a simple choice for me. That is actually why I went with the D200 instead of the D300 to me the cost difference was not justified. Only differences that were really important to me were the switch to the CMOS sensor from CCD for better iso noise preformance and the upgrade in the processor all the other stuff is really just fluff. Nice to have but not really necessary.

[hank freid fans]

In my opinion, With a DSLR you will need either a flash or nice high ISO performance.My own experience of the XT/XTi is that focussing can be hit or miss - miss more often than not in low light.Good and budget don't go together. The Pentax is an interesting option but might I also suggest the Olympus e=510. None of the dSLRs mentioned are great at low-light levels.If you want to do concert photography you might need a long lens such as a 70-200 or 70-300. You might be lucky and be close enough to use a standard lens.Might I recommend that for your budget you buy a film SLR and save up for a digital later?

[jnuss]

I went the same route your considering back in November 2006. I purchased an entry level Nikon (D50) as an upgrade from an Oly 3020. I chose that
particular camera because I wanted to learn. I'm still learning 20 months later. I also purchased Photoshop Elements 5. It does everything I'd ever
want in a photo editing package. I'm still learning how to use it. As has been pointed out here, going with either Nikon or Canon will give you a better choice of lenses and accessories. Likewise, Photoshop Elements is
one of the more popular software packages on the market. There are numerous "how to" articles and books dealing with this software. One I
recently purchased and would highly recommend is Rick Sammon's Digital
Imaging Workshops. Very informing. Good luck!

[wulf]

Might I recommend that for your budget you buy a film SLR and save up for a digital later?
I think that has significant disadvantages as well, particularly the lack of instant feedback on the results (and the ability to check them in detail when you get back to your computer). It also adds in processing costs, which will chew down the budget for a DSLR.

Wulf

[jodar]

I think that has significant disadvantages as well, particularly the lack of instant feedback on the results (and the ability to check them in detail when you get back to your computer). It also adds in processing costs, which will chew down the budget for a DSLR.


I have to agree. I have a fuji s8ooofd and a sony DSC-N1 and am looking at going to an dslr soon (i hope).
I have a film SLR and just cannot afford the film and the processing costs. I was using it for a while but the limitations have stopped me - too used to large numbers of photos easily accessible from my digital cameras. I like the manual controls on the fuji although I have to admit they do challenge me to get great or even good photos indoors with or without the flash.